Goodwood 74th Member's Meeting

[bauble]

The (not so) simple answer is to do away with Anti-roll bars, Nomex underwear, spaceman helmets, HANS devices, etc, etc, then race a 1950's circuit as 1950's drivers used to do, in 1950's cars, then maybe a degree of self-preservation might come in to a drivers attitude.

It would certainly make for better viewing.

Bauble.

[The Fat Clerk]

Now there's an idea, now lets convince the MSA ............................

[Mike Harte]

Bob, I am sure that you meant roll bars not anti..... However, I should point out that even in the mid 60s, I was racing with a full roll cage in the Anglia, and actually wore fire-proof Nomex underwear under my flame-proof overalls plus suitable gloves. Although I must admit that I used a Nomex face and neck protector rather than a balaclava, and an open-face Bell helmet.

Even back then, when many well known names were still racing in jeans and a shirt, some of us felt that we might need greater protection. I think that the same mind-set applies to this day; there are those that do, and those that don't.

[Thurner_fan]

A number of people have mentioned over-driving at Goodwood and also the impression given of glorification of such by the GRRC via some of their online videos.

Just for my education are the GRRC and 'the people that organise/control the Revival and MM' one and the same? Or are they separate groups?

I remember watching the antics of one driver at the Members' Meeting last year and, at the time, thinking "He'll probably be visiting the CoC if he keeps deliberately taking to the grass to barge past". Unlike those around him he also seemed to be keeping his foot down through waved yellows on the Lavant Straight.

As far as I know there was no visit to the CoC. But, imagine my surprise when I saw that the GRRC were actively promoting video of that chap's 'enthusiastic' over-driving in the run up to this year's meeting.

TF

[bauble]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Bob, I am sure that you meant roll bars not anti..... However, I should point out that even in the mid 60s, I was racing with a full roll cage in the Anglia, and actually wore fire-proof Nomex underwear under my flame-proof overalls plus suitable gloves. Although I must admit that I used a Nomex face and neck protector rather than a balaclava, and an open-face Bell helmet.

Even back then, when many well known names were still racing in jeans and a shirt, some of us felt that we might need greater protection. I think that the same mind-set applies to this day; there are those that do, and those that don't.

I meant those hideous scaffolding erections attached to so many nice cars, completely destroying their intrinsic beauty.

Mike the safer you feel the faster you go, if you took up my suggestion I bet your lap times would climb.

The actual point of my post was that Goodwood is an anachronism in todays world and should be treated with respectful caution, commensurate with the nature of the circuit. I first spectated there in 1952, and remember quite a few fatal crashes, when cars were not as fast as today, all of the safety measures did not stop a Lotus flying into a spectator area. Like it says on the ticket 'Motor Racing can be dangerous'.

Nice to disagree with you.

[delta]

Kept out of all this but my heart stopped when the Lotus dissapeared into the tunnel. Its a miracle no one was there. We had to walk up the pit lane to get to the cars after red flag and i just did not want to look over to the other side of the track. As a retired fireman I could tell by the movement of the marshalls,medics and crew that the incident was not as bad as it looked.
I am sure Goodwood will learn from the weekend. I for one, as a mechanic or driver love the place, its special.

[kipper]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Switch I think it would be a travesty if you were allowed to race a T70 without proving your ability. You can't race an LMP car without being a seeded driver, how the hell is it right you can race its 60s equivalent just because someone has given you the keys?

I appreciate that my involvement of motorsport is no where near as extensive as many of the people who have posted and at the risk of diverting what is an interesting thread, I do wonder if this is applicable to the entirety of club motorsport rather than just historics.

The reason I mention this is that there are competitions out there where a complete novice can jump into a slick shod, modern GT car without any experience to go with it - indeed, I have seen a novice cross on the back of an Audi R8 GT3 car.

Also, there are a number of instances (particularly this time of year), where a driver turns up at a meeting with the sole intention of getting a signature of their licence in order to enable them to compete in a specific event or championship. As a consequence, they trundle around at the back, staying off line and avoiding getting in the way of anyone in order to keep their noses clean and get their signature. As such, they're then in a position to upgrade their licence and turn up for a higher level meeting with the appropriate licence; however, it is debatable as to whether they've had adequate opportunity to hone their race craft to a level consistent with their licence grade.

I'm not sure how much of an issue this is and what the solution would be (assuming, of course, that one is required).

Ben

[rbm]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

Its very much a Goodwood problem, like guitarists playing bum notes when there's a big crowd. Brain fade.

yep, I was out at East London with Iain R, a very 1960's circuit, less safety concessions than Goodwood not one gravel trap in sight - and no safety car needed.

Big high profile events do seem to have more problems than the 'clubbie' ones...

... having said that I've done 3 Goodwood and my 5 months off work came from a 'clubbie' event.

Richard

[Middle_BBG]

I said at the last Revival that in my humble opinion, the Can Am cars are getting too fast for the track.

The one thing we can all agree on is that we want to see racing at Goodwood.

As I said in an earlier post, I would like to see different classes for the Members Meeting than for the Revival, akin to ethos of a true Members meeting. I imagine the sight of a phalanx of pre mid eighties FF1600 streaming down Lavant would be an amazing spectacle, that a grid of Super/Special Saloons would bring back great memories and a pack of FF2000 going through St Mary's would be a sight to behold.

No matter what meeting, at what level, there will always be novices. The difference is between those who want to race and those who just want to perform at Goodwood. Surely an easy way around this prickly subject would be to only invite those who had registered for an MSA sanctioned championship the previous year - that way you don't have such a big mix of the competent, the able and the less able.

Anyway, let's all count our blessings that there were no serious injuries and hope we get to enjoy the circuit as it should be used (although I enjoy the sprints we get there).

[John Turner]

Nothing surely later than the cars that were there in period but I would certainly dispense with Gp7 cars which would be better at Silverstone.

[Mike Bell]

We've already got cars up to 1981 John, in the GM Trophy. Albeit running on older treaded tyres, rather than slicks. Without that grid, the MM really would be a second Revival from the cars perspective.

There was talk of a later than '66 single seater formula being invited in the future, but not heard any more. Tyre requirements, again, could be in the way, if Goodwood want to keep everything on Dunlop cross plies....

[John Turner]

Good point Mike. I stand corrected.

[one-two]

I think back in the day - possibly even at the original Members' Meetings - Goodwood had a rule whereby a minute was added to the race time of anyone who span or left the circuit. Hugely unpopular with the drivers, of course.

[Duddha]

It's been ten years since I first attended an event at Goodwood. While this weekend events were awful and the consequences could have been even more serious, it must be left to the motor sport authorities to take the right actions, taking all serious parameters into account and trying to find a solution that would fit everyone in order to preserve the circuit, event but also historic motor sport.

However and I will be talking with facts here, the Goodwood events generally have changed and become the top historic events in the mainstream community but it also reflects in the cars and driving standards there.

Back to ten years ago, the Goodwood Tourist Trophy pole position was achieved by a very capable team and drivers with a time of 1.31.697 and an average speed of 151.3 km/h. In comparison and ten years later, the fastest lap recorded last weekend for the same category of cars was achieved by a very competent driver and team but with a time of 1.23.981 and an average speed of 164.19 km/h.

If you look at the Whitsun Trophy/Bruce McLaren Trophy, in ten years time, we've gone from a 1.22.513 and average speed of 160.9 km/h to a 1.17.079 and average speed of 178.89.

Roughly, a newly built and top maintained Cobra Daytona Coupe is now lapping nearly as fast as a T70 ten years ago and cars have improved an average speed by more than 10 km/h around a circuit that hasn't changed.

While I always think the parameter of having the right package is predominant in motor sport, I think there is something wrong happening in historic motor sport and it's not just Goodwood, it's happening everywhere, in all series and it's called development because all the times given here were achieved by drivers which I will never question in terms of driving standards or ability to drive "balls out".

All in all, we're no longer talking historic racing, history and period specification have vanished from those sort of events and I would more call it a "historic looking modern motor sport" event than a historic event.

[zefarelly]

pre'66 saloons have Gone from 1:40 to 1:30 a lap, roughly, from '98 to now.

Jim Clark managed a 1:35.8 in 1964

Quite a leap for a set of rules which haven't changed.

[pomracer]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

If I might throw a slight spanner in the works. In my 40+ years in the sport I've occasionally seen people with International Licences (including me, you'll say) drive like pillocks and people with Novice Crosses drive superbly, and i'm sure you have as well, we've got to be a bit careful here.

Look at the Road Licence, I passed my test @ 17 and if I could have afforded to insure it, I could have driven some 'exotica' , having never driven at night or in the rain or on a motorway.

I used to test a Goodwood in the 70's and it is a circuit that does need to be treated with respect, it's old school like the Ring and should be driven in the same way in my humble opinion.

I do not often post on the forum but felt compelled to do so, as I sense a degree of "amateur" driver bashing going on. I have competed at the Revival in the RAC TT three times and Shelby Cup once, so know what it is like to be an "amateur" surrounded by quick drivers and indeed having a 'name' share my car. The fact is that many if not most of the really big shunts that have happened at Goodwood in the last ten years have involved the professional drivers. I am talking here about seriously damaged cars and potentially life threatening crashes, and as I type this three or four incidents come to mind which did not involve other cars but were, very simply, the pro' drivers just pushing too hard and over cooking it. No backmarkers, no amateur drivers, just red mist. No need to name names - just get on Google or You tube.
As an "amateur" driver surrounded by big names and driving gods from past years, I never felt any pressure to push it because, well, you knew that when the flag dropped the pace would be faster than any other race you had done - the only pressure I felt at Goodwood , and it was a pressure, was not to f--- up (as I wanted to be invited again) and to finish the race. So I would suggest that in my case at least the Goodwood effect was positive.
I am now in danger of bashing the 'professionals', but I have been in the drivers changing room at the Revival and overheard some pretty remarkable conversations one of which has stayed with me ever since, and involved a discussion about an on track incident where two very well known names agreed not to dob each other in and to blame a backmarker....and of course when it came down to their word against the other poor hapless amateur , you can guess who got listened to.
Anyway, enough of that - just wanted to redress the balance a bit.

[Peter Horsman]

Louis, in those words 'a newly built Cobra Daytona Coupe', you have encapsulated all that is wrong.

The builders who want to make it, the owners who want to own it, the organisers who want to invite it.

Historic competition is not simply another formula in which to acquire trophies, it is a discipline apart, in which one of the essential ingredients is a devotion to the cars and to their history. Historic Motor Sport enables the active celebration of the History of the Motor Car.

(though the Cobras were driven rather well!)

[Thurner_fan]

Originally Posted by one-two

I think back in the day - possibly even at the original Members' Meetings - Goodwood had a rule whereby a minute was added to the race time of anyone who span or left the circuit. Hugely unpopular with the drivers, of course.

But now the same errant drivers often get a GRRC branded spot on Youtube.

This, alongside the arms race in car (over?)development, perhaps sums up how things have changed.

With a circuit that is, in some sense, frozen in time in terms of safety provision there is an obvious disconnect here.

Reduce the pace, tighten up on driver discipline, still put on a great show for the historic race fans. But, are there actually enough of those to make it pay?

TF

[one-two]

There are issues with development and speed and so on and the oft-repeated views of a small number of posters are known and understood. But, of all the things that happened or nearly happened last weekend are we really saying that the appearance of two well-prepared and well-driven Cobra Daytona coupes was the most significant and troubling?

[apriliadriver]

I agree with Pomracer's post. I drove at the Revival Meeting 1998 to 2003 in the St Marys and the Fordwater. I had been racing historics for 7 years in 1998. The grids were then composed of mainly amateur racers in their own cars, and very friendly it was, too. The driving standards were pretty good, and Eligibility scrutineers were pretty draconian - I and several others got a 10 sec grid penalty for having perspex side-windows ... in cars that had perspex in period. But we accepted it with some grumbling.

Five years later the grids were being filled with professionals in someone else's car : the drivers wanted to do their best for the gung-ho owners egging them on ("drive the **** off it !"). But the 'brand' (how I hate that word) was being established it and that's what brings the crowds in. No bucks, no Buck Rogers.

Not only that, but the Perspex Police seemed to have gone walkabout and people were building hotrods just for the Revival Meeting (viz the Grey Lady). "1300cc" Alfas were running 2-litre engines and so on. Driving standards were now in the red mist zone.

OK, there's nothing new about the sentiments in this post, but the accidents this year are a harsh reminder that Goodwood is pressing up against the bar in the Last Chance Saloon. When does anyone here remember a time when the tunnel under the track was empty of people ? And a wheel bouncing through the Disabled Viewing Platform ?? That there were no serious injuries or deaths as a consequence of Stephen Bond's somersault was not just good luck, it was a bl**dy miracle.

I love Goodwood, it is a fabulous track and two great meetings - this year's SF Edge race at the MM was a wonder - and I don't want to see it closed after a coroners inquest.
Nick

[one-two]

Nick, the accident you refer to happened to a genuine enthusiast in a genuine car at a relatively slow part of the circuit. The three drivers who had incidents in the notionally one-lap big banger race may also have been genuine enthusiasts in genuine cars for all I know. The issues related to professional drivers and development are clearly important, but they weren't - in my opinion at least - directly relevant last weekend. Robert

[Simon Hadfield]

Originally Posted by Peter Horsman

Louis, in those words 'a newly built Cobra Daytona Coupe', you have encapsulated all that is wrong.

The builders who want to make it, the owners who want to own it, the organisers who want to invite it.

Historic competition is not simply another formula in which to acquire trophies, it is a discipline apart, in which one of the essential ingredients is a devotion to the cars and to their history. Historic Motor Sport enables the active celebration of the History of the Motor Car.

(though the Cobras were driven rather well!)

Which they most certainly were!

However to address the above post - and for all the posts about development the fact that Goodwood circuit has stayed substantially as it was is a direct counterpoint to the arms race that has gone on - is going on - throughout historic racing. In the World Chamionship round in 1959 Graham Hill qualified third in the works 2.5 litre Lotus 15 running in the 1.33s. Last September the fastest 15s were doing 1.25s. These are supposedly real Lotus 15s in supposedly period trim - I don't think Graham was really 8 seconds off the pace?
The fastest lap in that race - a then new lap record, was Tony Brookes in a Ferrari - from memory in the 1.32s. New or old, replica or restoration, Goodwood or any circuit that historics race on - simply the goalposts have moved.

[Mike Harte]

Although the Goodwood circuit has remained much as it was in the sixties, there have been changes that would surely account for some of the time differences. I do believe that the track has been resurfaced to meet newer specifications demanded by the MSA, and even though the surface follows the same track as back then, there are now curbs in places where there would have just been a white line bordered by grass. And I am sure that in some minds that the fact that there are tyre barriers around the track instead of just an earth bank encourages them to keep their foot in more than might have happened in the past.

Also to be taken into account is that the chicane is now made of polystyrene rather than the brick edifice that it was once; I feel certain that that must be a factor, along with the acknowledgement that the tyre compounds are undoubtedly far superior nowadays, which has probably led to improvements in the suspension to deal with the greater adhesion.

[TimD]

Pomracer said what I have been thinking over the last 24 hours. All of the big incidents this weekend, whatever caused them, happened to cars that were not emblazoned with a novice cross.

Whereas by contrast I couldn't help but notice that three of the aero-engined Edwardian specials, massively over-endowed with cubic capacity and with the most primitive of automotive braking systems were being driven competently and spiritedly by newcomers.

Perhaps this is another reason for keeping the Members Meeting as amateur as is possible - they seem to be more sympathetic to the machinery than the paid superstars.

[Simon Hadfield]

It was of course Tony Brooks. I knew that....Doh!