USCC (leave your axe outside)

[jeast]

Originally Posted by ACFlinn

We can debate the wisdom of using a spec tire for the P class. The Grand-Am DP's (and F1) already use one. Don't the ALMS LMPC's already race on a Continental spec tire? Also, wouldn't it kill the point of a challenge (spec) class to have cars racing on different tire compounds?

Andy Flinn

Specs classes can stay on spec tires just leave p2 alone.. My bigger point was a team running under contract with Dunlop (or whoever) for WEC or ELMS might be kept from running in the USCR because of their contract.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by jeast

Specs classes can stay on spec tires just leave p2 alone.. My bigger point was a team running under contract with Dunlop (or whoever) for WEC or ELMS might be kept from running in the USCR because of their contract.

And before anyone rips into this post, just as an example, Greaves Motorsport took a P2 car to Sebring this year because there were drivers willing to fund it, so there should be drivers with funding that want to do both the WEC or ELMS and the big races in USCR in a prototype. And maybe the financials will be simpler if all the races are done with the same car and team.

So there is a potential for a team to do that, and it should be encouraged instead of dismissed from the start with a spec tire.

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by Ferrari333SP

Shakedown's Leo Parente interviewing Scot Elkins: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MR07nWC883o

Just watched it. Nothing in there nobody has heard a million times before.

[Mechanic Z]

Axes aren't allowed? Can I bring in a tank?

[StarkNaked]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

If P2 goes to a spec tire, the cars will effectively be useless at LM, and WEC and ELMS cars will be useless here....

And if that's the case, then USCR will have shot themselves in the foot big time!!! What's the point of being ACO compliant, if they aren't compliant?????

It needs to be the same rules on both sides of the pond if you ever want to see any teams bother to cross the pond!

[TRspitfirefan]

Originally Posted by Mechanic Z

Axes aren't allowed? Can I bring in a tank?

That sorta looks like a Daytona Prototype.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by StarkNaked

And if that's the case, then USCR will have shot themselves in the foot big time!!! What's the point of being ACO compliant, if they aren't compliant?????

It needs to be the same rules on both sides of the pond if you ever want to see any teams bother to cross the pond!

Well, it's not like this will be much of a problem for 2014, because with no races run before Daytona and Sebring all P2 teams - American and Europeans - will have to start from scratch on the Continentals, so no advantage for the Americans there.

Further: The Dubai 24 hours uses spec tires (Dunlop) as well, but that hardly seems to stop European GT3 teams that often run on different spec tires (Michelin, Yokohama, Pirelli, Advan) in their respective home series from competing there.

And finally: European extra entries are nice, but they are not USCR's core business. Their core business (as far as prototypes are concerned) are the year round competitors and to satisfy all of those, it is important to find a working BoP between the DPs and the P2s. That has to be the main task - and having just one tire supplier makes that vastly easier. Let's say you have multiple tire manufacturers and Michelin produces an unmatched P2 tire, but offers no or just a mediocre DP-tire... suddenly two thirds of your prototype grid are automatically taken out of contention. Sure - 90% of the users on here would like nothing better, but that's really besides the point.

The rules until 2016 were always going to be one big compromise and really just a stop gap before the new prototype rules come on line - I am all for introducing open tire competition in the prototype ranks by then, but right now, the USRC's job is to make sure that as many prototype teams as possible stay on board, and a spec tire definitely seems to be the way to go there.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Mechanic Z

Axes aren't allowed? Can I bring in a tank?

Is that a much talked about stunning new Ford bodywork for DP? The is roof still looks ugly, I'm afraid.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Mechanic Z

Axes aren't allowed? Can I bring in a tank?

You are demonstrating how threads get out of hand. Thermonuclear war will result!

[Adam43]

Racing has been littered with these tyre issues. Even back to the 80s with British and European F3 championships. Different tyres for each series, but it didn't stop teams doing both if they wanted too. Sometimes they even shared races

If there is real will to come over to the US the Europeans will. As speed-king's examples show if the race is strong enough tyres won't stop them going.

That is not to underestimate the challenge of swapping tyres as Maelochs says.

[jeast]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Racing has been littered with these tyre issues. Even back to the 80s with British and European F3 championships. Different tyres for each series, but it didn't stop teams doing both if they wanted too. Sometimes they even shared races

If there is real will to come over to the US the Europeans will. As speed-king's examples show if the race is strong enough tyres won't stop them going.

That is not to underestimate the challenge of swapping tyres as Maelochs says.

Ok maybe im wrong but I thought WEC/ teams with open tire rules have contracts with the suppliers? I don't think they can just show up at tracks and buy off the rack tires. The F3 example is different because the tire contracts are with the series not the teams. So if a a teams signs a contract with Michelin why would Michelin let them out of their contract to race Contis?

[jeast]

Originally Posted by TRspitfirefan

That sorta looks like a Daytona Prototype.

No its to technology advanced.

[ACFlinn]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Again, making good points and missing the main point.

If P2 goes to a spec tire, the cars will effectively be useless at LM, and WEC and ELMS cars will be useless here.

Remember how Corvette struggled because it had been racing 2012-spec Michelin, when it go to Le Mans and put on 2013 tires? Two of the strongest GTE entries on the planet were mid-pack because the team didn't know the tires.

If the cars can't run the same tires in the U.S. as they would in Europe, that limits the number of teams which would do both, kind of making a joke of the "preserving ACO ties" theme.

Also, PC has always been on a spec tire, and is a spec class; P2 has never been on a spec tire because it is not and never has been a spec class. facts and all ...

Isn't that the point of pre-Le Mans and pre-Rolex 24 testing sessions? It's not like teams just show up on race weekend to compete at Le Mans and Daytona. No?

As was pointed out, Corvette's struggle at Le Mans this year had nothing to do with spec tires.

If European LMP2 teams wish to sign exclusive tire contracts, then that's an issue they'll have to resolve. Again, as pointed out, spec tire rules don't appear to prevent GT3 teams from competing in other series or races.

Quite frankly, I don't expect it to be much of an issue. There is no spec tire rule for ALMS LMP2 this year. However, I can recall only one team from Europe showing up for Sebring. (By comparison, excluding Level 5, there were 21 other LMP2's at Le Mans this year.)

I'm all for encouraging Euro LMP2's to compete in the USCR series. However, once again as pointed out before, if the powers-that-be expect these Euro entries to be the bread and butter of the USCR's LMP2 contingent, they are making a big mistake.

Andy Flinn

[ACFlinn]

Originally Posted by StarkNaked

And if that's the case, then USCR will have shot themselves in the foot big time!!! What's the point of being ACO compliant, if they aren't compliant?????

It needs to be the same rules on both sides of the pond if you ever want to see any teams bother to cross the pond!

It's called compromise. It's how you get things done (or don't get things done if you look at Washington D.C.).

In the past few weeks, I've seen a remarkable amount of compromise from the USCR powers-that-be. Acceptance of more GT3 cars and regulations, elimination of the GX class, possible phasing out of Prep 2 GTD cars, and adoption of the current ACO regs for LMP2 cars are just a few examples. (By the way, is there anything written in the current ACO rules for LMP2 cars that forbids them from competing on a spec tire?) On the other hand, so far I see very little, if any, compromise from the fans of the LMP2 status quo.

This is very tiresome and will eventually destroy any hopes of a unified series.

Andy Flinn

[ACFlinn]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Well, it's not like this will be much of a problem for 2014, because with no races run before Daytona and Sebring all P2 teams - American and Europeans - will have to start from scratch on the Continentals, so no advantage for the Americans there.

Further: The Dubai 24 hours uses spec tires (Dunlop) as well, but that hardly seems to stop European GT3 teams that often run on different spec tires (Michelin, Yokohama, Pirelli, Advan) in their respective home series from competing there.

And finally: European extra entries are nice, but they are not USCR's core business. Their core business (as far as prototypes are concerned) are the year round competitors and to satisfy all of those, it is important to find a working BoP between the DPs and the P2s. That has to be the main task - and having just one tire supplier makes that vastly easier. Let's say you have multiple tire manufacturers and Michelin produces an unmatched P2 tire, but offers no or just a mediocre DP-tire... suddenly two thirds of your prototype grid are automatically taken out of contention. Sure - 90% of the users on here would like nothing better, but that's really besides the point.

The rules until 2016 were always going to be one big compromise and really just a stop gap before the new prototype rules come on line - I am all for introducing open tire competition in the prototype ranks by then, but right now, the USRC's job is to make sure that as many prototype teams as possible stay on board, and a spec tire definitely seems to be the way to go there.

Excellent post, Speed-King!

I agree 100 percent.

I didn't even consider the probability that the DP's would all be using a spec tire.

Andy Flinn

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by ACFlinn

Excellent post, Speed-King!

I agree 100 percent.

I didn't even consider the probability that the DP's would all be using a spec tire.

Andy Flinn

DPs have never used anything but a spec tire.

[Ephaeton]

"USCR Compromise Advocatus Diaboli" [compromise of the day follows in brackets]

Originally Posted by ACFlinn

Acceptance of more GT3 cars and regulations,

Sure, why not F1 cars either, just gotta BoP them to GTC/GTD levels of performance. Great "compromise". "Yes you can play with us if you follow all and any rules we dictate you, even in the middle of your championship hunt as we BOP you to the end of the field" That's not a compromise. [but yes that's the same way ACO functions, too].

Originally Posted by ACFlinn

elimination of the GX class,

That's a compromise between what? Let's try, the middle/common ground (compromise) between the extreme positions must have been to get rid of GX. If so, can keep it as well -- nobody will turn up. So you don't (bit embarrassing isn't it [yes, same as LMP1 currently]). If you can pull out these extreme positions to which abolishing GX is a compromise, that'd actually be an interesting read.

Originally Posted by ACFlinn

possible phasing out of Prep 2 GTD cars,

someone (Mike Hedlund e.g.) vocalized how stupidly expensive these cars are for the low speed they're putting on the road. Bad PR guaranteed. So, do the sane thing (if you cannot spin) : give in. Nobody wants to buy these boxes anyways when they can have a GT3 car (even if it has to be raped to USCR standards).

Originally Posted by ACFlinn

and adoption of the current ACO regs for LMP2 cars

Didn't know that ACO regs had spec tires and a performance target of being able to race a DP (i.e. stand still a couple seconds a lap with its current, ACO reg performance level) [I don't know whether they forbid spec tires but if they explicitly allow different tires then they factually forbid spec tires...]

Originally Posted by ACFlinn

are just a few examples.

See above. No compromises anywhere. Just dictating whatever pleases them (and that would be fine as long as they didn't a) dictate BS and b) finally spat out whatever it was they wanted to dictate!).

[ACFlinn]

Originally Posted by BullMan

DPs have never used anything but a spec tire.

BullMan, we're considering 2014 - not the past.

The DP's wouldn't necessarily have to use a spec tire in 2014. No?

Andy Flinn

[BullMan]

Originally Posted by ACFlinn

BullMan, we're considering 2014 - not the past.

The DP's wouldn't necessarily have to use a spec tire in 2014. No?

Andy Flinn

Of course they would. They aren't going to mandate a crap spec tire for the faster P2s and then turn around and let DPs have their choice of nonexistent tire providers for the first time in history.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by jeast

Ok maybe im wrong but I thought WEC/ teams with open tire rules have contracts with the suppliers? I don't think they can just show up at tracks and buy off the rack tires. The F3 example is different because the tire contracts are with the series not the teams. So if a a teams signs a contract with Michelin why would Michelin let them out of their contract to race Contis?

It must be very team specific. ? Depends on the contract, but my guess is these are contracts a team has for a series rather than for everything. Undoubtedly it makes it a little more difficult, if only because it isn't consistent. I still reckon they would get over it if they really wanted a go. I don't think we'll see that many making the move anyway.

They had to do it because it Is the best way to get the car on an even footing.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Adam43

It must be very team specific. ? Depends on the contract, but my guess is these are contracts a team has for a series rather than for everything.

Wasn't that the type of deal that AMR (GT1) had with Pirelli for the ALMS and then Michelin for LM? I wouldn't want anything but Michelin at LM and I think Pirelli was paying them to run their tires instead of getting the bill from Michelin, and money makes racing go round.

[freeballin]

Originally Posted by BullMan

Of course they would. They aren't going to mandate a crap spec tire for the faster P2s and then turn around and let DPs have their choice of nonexistent tire providers for the first time in history.

The "crap" Continentals from the DPs are faster than the tires Michelin was providing for LMPC. ALMS has open tire spec for three classes and how many tire companies are competing?

In other news Bill Riley said on a recent podcast his cars are built with 800hp in mind. He said his belief is the DP transmission can handle another 100-150hp as well. Who cares about tires?

[Nick Woodbury]

Originally Posted by freeballin

ALMS has open tire spec for three classes and how many tire companies are competing?

Michelin, Falken, Yokohama, Bridgestone.

[ACFlinn]

"Sure, why not F1 cars either, just gotta BoP them to GTC/GTD levels of performance. Great "compromise". "Yes you can play with us if you follow all and any rules we dictate you, even in the middle of your championship hunt as we BOP you to the end of the field" That's not a compromise. [but yes that's the same way ACO functions, too]." --- Ephaeton

American teams will also be racing GT3 cars in the USCR next year. So I'm not sure of what other championship you are referring to. As far as I know, they will all (Grand-Am GT, GTC and GT3 cars) be competing for the same thing - the 2014 USCR GTD championship. If the Euro GT3 teams want to come over and compete, yes, they will have to play by the rules.

"That's a compromise between what? Let's try, the middle/common ground (compromise) between the extreme positions must have been to get rid of GX." --- Ephaeton

The ALMS teams give up GTC and the Grand-Am teams give up GX. How can you not see that's a compromise?

"Someone (Mike Hedlund e.g.) vocalized how stupidly expensive these cars are for the low speed they're putting on the road." --- Ephaeton

The front row for Grand-Am GT at Indy this weekend is a tube frame Corvette and a tube frame Camaro. The Camaro is currently the hottest car in the series. I haven't seen the comments you are referring to so I don't know how accurate they are or if you are even attributing them correctly. Are you referring to the Patron Ferrari, the JDX Porsche or a tube frame Grand-Am GT car?

"[I don't know whether they forbid spec tires but if they explicitly allow different tires then they factually forbid spec tires...]" --- Ephaeton

?

"Just dictating whatever pleases them (and that would be fine as long as they didn't a) dictate BS...." - Ephaeton

So it's completely subjective. I guess if it's ACO dictating it's fine. If it's the USCR dictating - not so much.

[ACFlinn]

Originally Posted by BullMan

Of course they would. They aren't going to mandate a crap spec tire for the faster P2s and then turn around and let DPs have their choice of nonexistent tire providers for the first time in history.

Why not? The Grand-Am and the ALMS are merging "for the first time in history."

Andy Flinn