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23 Sep 2012, 18:25 (Ref:3140451) | #2401 | |
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I know you weren't referring to me, but I really enjoyed the 2008-2011 races.
My jaw about hit the floor when Peugeot took the pole in 2008 at a 3:18.5. Just to give you an idea of how fast the cars were, Peugeot ran the opening lap of the race at a 3:26. The 2010 race was also incredible as the Peugeots and Audis were constantly running race lap times at 3:22 or below. |
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23 Sep 2012, 18:32 (Ref:3140460) | #2402 | |
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They may run at few laps at 3:23 or below, but that will not be average lap speed, as the LMP1s can easily lose 5-10 seconds getting held up by the GTs in the Porsche Curves alone.
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23 Sep 2012, 18:45 (Ref:3140468) | #2403 | |||
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But it was a bigger safety issue with GT1's almost faster than LMP2's, therefor this 20-30km/h difference is better, if the issues with rearward sight in the 458's is fixed. And don't get me wrong, i would love faster cars, but we must also accept that the speed needs to be restricted to keep the cars from killing drivers, press and spectators. If we get cars capable of doing 3:20's and even sub. then i fear the security measures won't be enough to keep the cars from the spectators! (Just see the McNish 2011 crash and Davidson 2012). If there is any track which knows the importance of keeping the cars out of the spectator lines - it's Le Mans (referring to the 1955 accident which almost killed motorsport) |
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Hvil i Fred Allan. (Rest in Peace Allan) |
23 Sep 2012, 22:11 (Ref:3140568) | #2404 | |||
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Ok , I see your point, it´s fair enough, but please he all know what causes the 2011 and 2012 crashes, and the lower lap times have nothing to do with that, iMO. The problems are not in the straight´s, the cars are cornering faster and faster so the average top speed in Le mans this year compare to 3/4 years ago is about 20-30km/h lower. The 908 HDI run at 350 km/k, now Audi is doing 330 km/h and the big accidents happened in lower top speed ( except Rockenfeller ). Thats ok, we all have our opinions . let´s hope the next years bring more fun at this sport, with 3:30 or below that. Audi is there Toyota also, Porsche is coming and maybe more will come. I believe that 2014 will be a great year. |
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24 Sep 2012, 02:08 (Ref:3140630) | #2405 | |
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Added to this problem is that P1s and P2s are not fast enough to pass on the straights so they have to pass in corners which means cars on the limit, at much higher speeds and forces in more directions, and thus more chance for disaster.
Passing a car on a straight should be (driver stupidity aside) a Lot safer than passing in a corner where the tires are dealing with braking or accelerating, and cornering forces. Also visibility is more of an issue, and also driver judgement. Theoretically a P1 which cornered like a GTE but accelerated a lot quicker and had a much higher top end would be a lot safer than the current cars, which have to pass when cornering art several G. |
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24 Sep 2012, 03:28 (Ref:3140642) | #2406 | |
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Yeah, the LMP1s make so much time in the corners now that they can't afford to get held up and lose their momentum. I remember seeing the Audis and Toyotas run a few laps in the 3:37s this year due to traffic (not in and out laps either).
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24 Sep 2012, 07:06 (Ref:3140705) | #2407 | |||
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Fast and furious is what I want , and what most drivers want too . New rules is whats needed , and not farsical aero screw ups like that vert fin and ride height ..... Bring back ground effects , full width rear wing , allow the use of a nose wing for front downforce like the XJR-14 and 962 ran ..... AND ABOVE ALL CONSULT THE BLOODY DRIVERS FOR A CHANGE !!! |
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24 Sep 2012, 07:39 (Ref:3140719) | #2408 | |
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If they had a flat front floor and lowered the side height I think that would help. Do away with the fins and fender holes.
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24 Sep 2012, 08:02 (Ref:3140728) | #2409 | |||
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Remember a Flat floor increases suction which allows the cars to corner faster, but if the suction is broken, the downforce isn't sufficient to keep the car on track, and the car would become airborne. But i agree with you, other solutions to the "blow-over" crashes should be presented so we can deal away with the fin, holes and the slim rearwing. (I know the rearwing slimming wast because of the blow-overs, but it's not right) |
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Hvil i Fred Allan. (Rest in Peace Allan) |
24 Sep 2012, 08:20 (Ref:3140732) | #2410 | |
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With more downforce, you're less likely to flip. Unless you suddenly lose it. But that can happen anywhere, so it makes little difference. Group C/lmp 900 had the flat front floor without the rise in the middle, you didn't often see them flipping.
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24 Sep 2012, 08:34 (Ref:3140740) | #2411 | |||
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Altough I like that they have to try to keep the momemtum in corners. Should give more emphasis to driver skill and cars should be closer to the limit more of the time. |
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24 Sep 2012, 09:16 (Ref:3140759) | #2412 | |
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If you have the chance, watch a bit of the 2008-2010 Le Mans races and watch how much torque and horsepower the Peugeots and Audis have back then.
The regulation changes the past two years have made it easy to forget how much launch and straight-line speed those things had. |
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24 Sep 2012, 12:27 (Ref:3140869) | #2413 | |||
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24 Sep 2012, 16:33 (Ref:3140968) | #2414 | ||
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Is there a website somewhere, or does someone know exactly how many prototypes have actually flipped since the Group C days? Is it more than any other type of racing formula?
I can personally only remember a few flips from the IMSA/Gp C days, the flawed GT Merc and a couple of more recent Peugeots. I don't really consider the Toyota flip this year. A real statistical breakdown might actually be quite useful. Are the remedies even really necessary? I quite firmly believe there has to be a better way of decreasing the likelihood of a car flipping than cutting four holes in the bodywork and attaching a barn door to the rear deck. |
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24 Sep 2012, 16:41 (Ref:3140971) | #2415 | |||
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24 Sep 2012, 17:31 (Ref:3140994) | #2416 | ||
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A lot of those flips , hit something very structural before they flipped , there is no amount of aero or planning that will stop that in any formula , unless your racing Terex Titans !!!
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24 Sep 2012, 18:08 (Ref:3141007) | #2417 | ||
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Yes, I don't consider a car turning over because it hit something is quite the same thing as flipping like Dumbreck, Webber or Dalmas did in the CLK/GT1 days. These were abnormal accidents that should and probably could have been prevented. However, tyre blowouts or being twated by Perrazzini are something else. Or at least should be treated differently by the rule makers.
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24 Sep 2012, 19:09 (Ref:3141030) | #2418 | ||
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Does it stand to reason that in the "old days" cars flipped due to high top end speeds related to aero that was on the edge of holding the car to the ground. Now in the "new era" the cars are having more problems not on the straights, but because of higher cornering speeds coupled with interference with slower cars - McNish/Rocky and Davidson all had spectacular crashes due to impacts with slower cars first, then flipped - (the cause of the initial impact may have been due to blind spots or otherwise but the driver was still put in that position due to needing to corner as fast as possible)...If they had had more power they wouldn't have to go 110% through every corner and could more safely pass on a straight....
One thing I have wondered since this years LeMans - anyone every hear what the overall height Davidson was at? The car was vertical in the air and still higher off the ground than the Ferrari he made contact with... Last edited by Livininthinair; 24 Sep 2012 at 19:16. |
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24 Sep 2012, 20:39 (Ref:3141072) | #2419 | |
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One also has to consider the flips that have occurred during private testing. One of the Peugeots cleared the fence at Aragon if I remember correctly.
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24 Sep 2012, 20:40 (Ref:3141073) | #2420 | |
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Anthony was at least 4 or 5 feet off the ground when the nose was down. He did a complete flip with a half twist. Amazing the chassis was intact.
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25 Sep 2012, 02:59 (Ref:3141207) | #2421 | ||
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There are topics listing flips for almost every type of category. Altough in these lists "flip" is literally any kind of flip. Here is the list for prototypes: http://codepad.org/uCi1R5EL |
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25 Sep 2012, 07:16 (Ref:3141262) | #2422 | ||
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Thanks for those links. That is quite some list. It would be very interesting to see them broken down with more background information per accident, as it even lists Perrazini as having flipped even though he only ended on his roof after contact with the barrier. If I'm approved I'll have a look through the forum as I'm quite intrigued by this phenomenon.
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25 Sep 2012, 13:45 (Ref:3141426) | #2423 | ||||
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3 Oct 2012, 11:46 (Ref:3145678) | #2424 | ||
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But now... Gwyllion made these calculations at the page 152, and i do them also but a little bit in another way. If you take a look at the new regs, you can see that the difference between 0-2-4-6 MJ hybrids is always 0,15 litres (not the same for 8 MJ hybrid, so i ignored it). That means, that for the ACO calculations: - useful energy of 0,15 litres of gasoline equals to 2 MJ energy From this: - 1 litre equals to 13,33 MJ useful energy Unfortunately, we don't know the Shell petrol's heat of combustion exactly but with the higher end (47,3 MJ/kg, or 35,7 MJ/l, with the density of 754 kg/m3) you get 37,4 % efficiency. With a bit more real numbers (34,8 MJ/l 46,15 MJ/kg) you get 38,3%. If you want to reach the Toyota number (41,5%) than you need 42,6 MJ/kg or 32,1 MJ/l, which seems even more realistic because we talk about an E20 gasoline, and ethanol has less heat of combustion. But i guess, the other teams (Pesca, Oak...), and constructors would not be happy with the new regs, if 41,5% efficiency should be achieved... The same for diesels (ignored the 0 MJ hybrid), the average difference is 0,1233 litres. With higher heating value (44,8 MJ/kg or 37,35 MJ/l with 833 kg/m3), 43,4% efficiency needed, but with more realistic numbers (43 MJ/kg or 35,86 MJ/l) you get 45,2%. With 38,3% for petrol, and 45,2% for diesel, in both cases you have 66 MJ/lap, so calculations look ok for me. What worry me, that you still won't have real equal in performances, as you putted the efficiency numbers into the calculations at the very beginning. I don't want to pretend the diesels, because i'm rather a petrol hearted man, but if we talk about "the same energy" than if you have a more efficient solution -in this case the diesel- than you should be in an advantage. Now we have "the same energy" with the help of some retouch factors. Ok, will have some energy at the wheel, but we should have that at the tank i think. I find worrying also that aco engineers do the calculations from the data of the earlier years, but they can not really keep up with the new developments. They can not really know what is the potential in diesel engines or what is that in the petrol engines. Which is interesting that in the august issue of the Racecar Engineering, they write that these numbers are not the same numbers what the constructors saw earlier... And also there is an interesting quote from Pescarolo: "Bruno Famin told me i had to congratulate my technical team because every time we said their power we were right!" So if Henri is happy with the new regs, than it looks for me that ACO has written them in the right way! Still more to come as i'm going to do some engine simulation... |
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3 Oct 2012, 13:20 (Ref:3145719) | #2425 | ||||
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According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heating...bustion_tables petrol the heating value of ethanol is only 29.7 MJ/kg, compared to 47.3 MJ/kg for petrol. E20 biofuel is a mixture of 20% ethanol and 80% petrol, so it will have a heating value of 0.8 * 47.3 + 0.2 * 29.7 = 43.8 MJ/kg. That explains why the Toyota calculations give a much higher efficiency target (i.e., 41.5%) for petrol engines than my calculations (i.e., 35.9%). Quote:
Remember the original criticism from Toyota. Quote:
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