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Old 9 Sep 2016, 08:35 (Ref:3671207)   #1
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ACO silence on 2017 LMP1-L Regs?

After the flurry of announcements both at Le Mans and post the race, regarding what has been proposed for the LMP1-L class for 2017 onwards, there has since been deafening silence from the ACO!

Curious to know if anyone out there has heard anything new?

It would be wonderful to have a few more running in this class, other than a single Rebeliion now and Kolles.
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Old 9 Sep 2016, 09:35 (Ref:3671217)   #2
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They don't have any idea what to do with it. No one seems to have.
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Old 9 Sep 2016, 13:31 (Ref:3671243)   #3
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They don't have any idea what to do with it. No one seems to have.


Dare i say it, "Tell me news, not history!"

I would perhaps say, that beginning to have an idea what to do with the class, could be a good start.
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Old 9 Sep 2016, 14:27 (Ref:3671253)   #4
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http://www.endurance-info.com/fr/ei-...-lm-p1-privee/
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Old 9 Sep 2016, 15:33 (Ref:3671261)   #5
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We've been assured by Various Online Experts that P1-L is just fine and by 2018 will have more entrants than P2 because all of these teams really want the technical freedom afforded them, even if it means spending eleventy billion euros to only get on TV when you're on fire.

"Just Wait 'Til Next Year!"
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Old 9 Sep 2016, 15:55 (Ref:3671267)   #6
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Would it be better if ACO let DPi teams race in LMP1-L class after snubbing them in LMP2?

Technical freedom might be needed, but also major manufacturers who can't afford to make a hybrid system and beat the likes of Volkswagen Group and Toyota.
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Old 9 Sep 2016, 16:19 (Ref:3671269)   #7
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Would it be better if ACO let DPi teams race in LMP1-L class after snubbing them in LMP2?

Technical freedom might be needed, but also major manufacturers who can't afford to make a hybrid system and beat the likes of Volkswagen Group and Toyota.
Yes, I like the idea of DPI with Technical freedom in LMP1-L
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Old 9 Sep 2016, 16:52 (Ref:3671273)   #8
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Would it be better if ACO let DPi teams race in LMP1-L class after snubbing them in LMP2?
No.
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Old 9 Sep 2016, 17:07 (Ref:3671276)   #9
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Would it be better if ACO let DPi teams race in LMP1-L class after snubbing them in LMP2?

Technical freedom might be needed, but also major manufacturers who can't afford to make a hybrid system and beat the likes of Volkswagen Group and Toyota.
I think so. It seems a disservice to the teams that subscribe to ACO privateer class in WEC and ELMS. Also this nonsense that they can not BoP them because they are too disparate is hogwash! They balanced disparate cars in prototype for years! They just do not want to put in the work to do it. As for the 'werks' element, NO direct Werks team could be easily policed and the cars are HOMOLOGATED so there is no 'tinkering' advantage to be had, per se.






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Old 9 Sep 2016, 21:03 (Ref:3671312)   #10
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So ACO should be willing to accommodate LMP2-"DPi"s into LMP1 Nonhybrid, yet IMSA wouldn't have to give LMP1 Nonhybrids opportunity to race within their own LMP2-"DPi"... yeah sounds totally fair tradeoff
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Old 9 Sep 2016, 21:46 (Ref:3671317)   #11
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So ACO should be willing to accommodate LMP2-"DPi"s into LMP1 Nonhybrid, yet IMSA wouldn't have to give LMP1 Nonhybrids opportunity to race within their own LMP2-"DPi"... yeah sounds totally fair tradeoff
No trade off! IMSA does not have a P-1 class, it's top 'P' class is aligned with P-2.
The ACO are struggling to provide incentive enough for privateers to subscribe to P-1l (mainly cost), as the new P-2 are compliant to their new regs it would behoove the ACO IMO to adopt the DPi formula concept to populate their P-1l class. I do not believe it needs be an exact duplication of IMSA's, but, it would better suit the ACO's customers if it were to be compatible with it. Either an uptick for the IMSA DPis to compete at Le Mans or a slight de-tune for P-1l to race in IMSA rounds. Fairly simple and certainly doable if the ACO wish to, but we all know how that goes....

And yes, we ALL know you loathe the idea.








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Old 9 Sep 2016, 22:20 (Ref:3671322)   #12
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ACO wants manufacturers to fund proper P1 efforts and push the boundaries of technology. Not buy an old Lola and tape an engine in the back and call it a Mazda. THAT is why DPi won't fit in LMP1-L. They want to see an actual Audi and not a P2 car with a GT engine and some stickers.
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Old 9 Sep 2016, 22:40 (Ref:3671323)   #13
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ACO wants manufacturers to fund proper P1 efforts and push the boundaries of technology. Not buy an old Lola and tape an engine in the back and call it a Mazda. THAT is why DPi won't fit in LMP1-L. They want to see an actual Audi and not a P2 car with a GT engine and some stickers.
Lmp1 'L' is NOT for manufacturer teams but privateer teams. Running a Riley chassis with a Mazda engine in the back is no different than Rebellion or Kolles using the Nissan engine from the GTR LMP. IMSA should align with private lmp1 regs and just let them use the lmp2 chassis' but run the aero rules of p1 L.
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Old 9 Sep 2016, 23:02 (Ref:3671324)   #14
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ACO wants manufacturers to fund proper P1 efforts and push the boundaries of technology. Not buy an old Lola and tape an engine in the back and call it a Mazda. THAT is why DPi won't fit in LMP1-L. They want to see an actual Audi and not a P2 car with a GT engine and some stickers.
And since when has a WERKS team ran in P-1L? That is what P-1L (no ERS) is for, PRIVATEERS!

"LE MANS" PROTOTYPE 1 category includes:

  • "LE MANS" PROTOTYPE 1 Hybrid: with Energy Recovery System (ERS).
  • "LE MANS" PROTOTYPE 1 : with no Energy Recovery System (ERS) reserved only for privateers.
The LMP1 Private Teams category is reserved exclusively for independent private teams. A team that is independent of a manufacturer means a team that does not benefit from any support from a manufacturer other than for the single supply of engines, services relating to these engines or commercial support. Any support from a manufacturer relating to the chassis or to chassis systems is prohibited. It is understood that traction control is considered as a chassis system.

http://www.fiawec.com/presentation/classes.html



Or are the 4 IMSA/ACO/FIA constructors considered manufacturers in your book? IMSA's OEM (manufacturer) body work must be sold through their constructor partner.

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Old 10 Sep 2016, 03:43 (Ref:3671363)   #15
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Remember the whole nonsense over Honda and friends refusing to use generic engine management? They are definitely running their own traction control. Plus you know, the whole funding teams thing.
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Old 10 Sep 2016, 04:33 (Ref:3671365)   #16
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So we will fix privateer LMP1 class by filling it with LMP2 cars.
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Old 10 Sep 2016, 07:23 (Ref:3671374)   #17
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So we will fix privateer LMP1 class by filling it with LMP2 cars.
2 of the 3 lmp1 cars in the class this year were basically the same as the lmp2 Oreca 05. It's not a big deal when they are upgraded.
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Old 10 Sep 2016, 07:40 (Ref:3671375)   #18
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Lmp1 'L' is NOT for manufacturer teams but privateer teams. Running a Riley chassis with a Mazda engine in the back is no different than Rebellion or Kolles using the Nissan engine from the GTR LMP. IMSA should align with private lmp1 regs and just let them use the lmp2 chassis' but run the aero rules of p1 L.
That's my point. DPi is encouraging teams like Mazda to not build real cars. That is not what the ACO is trying to do. Allowing DPi in LMP1L opens the door for works or heavily works backed teams in a private class.

You say it's no different but it's actually completely different given the manufacturer involvement IMSA is trying to achieve. I for one have no desire to see teams like Mazda competing in WEC or Le Mans until they decide to do it properly.

On a side note, the entitlement some IMSA fans show is astounding. Like ACO should be grateful for IMSAs involvement and give them everything they want. DPi sounds great...for IMSA. But it isn't a fix for LMP1-L.

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Old 10 Sep 2016, 10:59 (Ref:3671397)   #19
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I'll be okay if LMP1-L has semi-works teams like Action Express Racing, of course that wouldn't count right because ACO wants GM to spend money on making a hybrid LMP1 car?
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Old 10 Sep 2016, 14:22 (Ref:3671426)   #20
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On a side note, the entitlement some IMSA fans show is astounding. Like ACO should be grateful for IMSAs involvement and give them everything they want. DPi sounds great...for IMSA. But it isn't a fix for LMP1-L.
Entitlement?????? Wow, ACO can do no wrong guy aren't you? Personally hope the ACO chokes on their stupidity and screwing all of their old teams in favor or manufacturers and chasing the FIA. Has anyone outside of Audi stuck around for longer than a decade under the new rules in LMP? They are worse than ALMS/IMSA in the 'wait, wait, you'll see we're right' PR BS, if I waited for their promised cars I'd just be older with nothing to show. To pretend the R-One is anything but what a DPi will be is beyond delusional. Let's see, base Oreca chassis (check), non chassis, non-spec Gibson engine (check), bodywork from the team to their design (check) not officially werks program car (check). Explain to me again, without the spirit of the rules BS, how it's not pretty damn close? And sorry, Mazda is NOT going to be running a hybrid anytime soon so that's not happening in LMP1 with a total company budget in the neighborhood of what VAG spends just on the two LMP1s.

The only fix for LMP1-L is to take it out back and kill it. There's less than zero interest in anything other than a watch company burning up the profits from insanely expensive timepieces. Kolles is a dumpster fire in sportscars as they were in F1, often an actual fire too. Nothing against the team guys but think they are hamstrung by their budget and resources.
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Old 10 Sep 2016, 15:30 (Ref:3671440)   #21
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Lol that post right there is exactly what I'm talking about. "Hope the ACO chokes". What a nice grown up rational response. No entitlement there at all. I never said the ACO can do no wrong. Not thinking DPi is the second coming of Jesus does not make the ACO perfect so let's drop that nonsense.

LMP1-L is for private teams. Not werks (I can spell it wrong too, totally cool), not werks backed. Private. If Mazda doesn't want to spend money to be in LMP1 and fight the big teams then that's fine, they don't have to. But it doesn't mean they should be allowed into a private class to pick on the privateers. This goes for Action Express and other GM backed teams too.

Now if you propose binning LMP1-L completely and introducing DPi then that's another kettle of fish all together and maybe worth talking about. DPi itself is a fine idea and suits IMSA down to the ground. But mixing that with what's a 100% private class isn't a good idea and will mean private teams will lose out to companies like Mazda and Nissan who don't want to spend money to fight with the big teams.

Edit: this goes for Alpine too. Get out of the amateur private classes.
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Old 10 Sep 2016, 16:20 (Ref:3671462)   #22
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Lol that post right there is exactly what I'm talking about. "Hope the ACO chokes". What a nice grown up rational response. No entitlement there at all. I never said the ACO can do no wrong. Not thinking DPi is the second coming of Jesus does not make the ACO perfect so let's drop that nonsense.

LMP1-L is for private teams. Not werks (I can spell it wrong too, totally cool), not werks backed. Private. If Mazda doesn't want to spend money to be in LMP1 and fight the big teams then that's fine, they don't have to. But it doesn't mean they should be allowed into a private class to pick on the privateers. This goes for Action Express and other GM backed teams too.

Now if you propose binning LMP1-L completely and introducing DPi then that's another kettle of fish all together and maybe worth talking about. DPi itself is a fine idea and suits IMSA down to the ground. But mixing that with what's a 100% private class isn't a good idea and will mean private teams will lose out to companies like Mazda and Nissan who don't want to spend money to fight with the big teams.

Edit: this goes for Alpine too. Get out of the amateur private classes.
What a steaming pile of Horse Manure! The thought, mine anyways, from the beginning in this thread was on how P-1L could be revitalized. It is abundantly CLEAR that there are NO new manufacturers that wish to enter into P-1 as Werks teams because the budget required is too massive. The concept that a team, say Rebellion, could buy a RM Mk.30/Mazda or a Ligier P217/Honda and race it P-1L with OEM body work has to be a werks team is beyond boggling!

As for the entitlement goading comment and the oh so witty retort post to the response to it... What a nice grown up rational response.

As to the assertion that DPi is the second coming, maybe you should try reading the post, as it said "it would behoove the ACO IMO to adopt the DPi formula concept to populate their P-1l class". Not to wholesalely adopt IMSA's DPi, but then again who cares about the ACO right? Or the fact that there is supposed to be a bond/link/relationship between the 2 most popular endurance sports car series.






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Old 10 Sep 2016, 16:44 (Ref:3671470)   #23
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Indeed the money required to run in LMP1 is rather high. However that doesn't change anything I said. P1-L is meant for private teams. Not werks or works or manufacturer funded. Private teams either building there own car or buying a chassis. As soon as you allow DPi entries then you're going to have teams like Mazda, Nissan and semi works GM teams lining up for entries in a class that they aren't meant to be in.

Once again, DPi is a fine concept. But it's trying to achieve a different thing to P-1L. DPi is wanting manufacturer involvement for cheap. P-1L is wanting privateers to build there own cars. These concepts are not directly compatible as a single class.
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Old 10 Sep 2016, 16:54 (Ref:3671474)   #24
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Indeed the money required to run in LMP1 is rather high. However that doesn't change anything I said. P1-L is meant for private teams. Not werks or works or manufacturer funded. Private teams either building there own car or buying a chassis. As soon as you allow DPi entries then you're going to have teams like Mazda, Nissan and semi works GM teams lining up for entries in a class that they aren't meant to be in.

Once again, DPi is a fine concept. But it's trying to achieve a different thing to P-1L. DPi is wanting manufacturer involvement for cheap. P-1L is wanting privateers to build there own cars. These concepts are not directly compatible as a single class.
I'll just highlight this in the post. It is still baffling as to why the concept of it does not get through! The DPi concept REQUIRES the team to buy it through an ACO approved constructor, not a manufacturer.










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Old 10 Sep 2016, 17:04 (Ref:3671478)   #25
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Chokes on is in reference to them stuffing the bs line of everyone wants this down our throats. Why shouldn't I wish they choke on their own stupidity that they thought we'd all think was so great? I don't think IMSA's DPis are any better of an idea but it has a better chance of sticking around.

The rest of us have figured out one car is not a class. Strakka isn't building their car and who else has even been hinted at as having true funded interest? Even Rebellion is seemingly questioning the class and they are pretty much guaranteed a win there every event.
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