[Driver] Alonso or Vettel. The drivers have their say.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by MarkG

My opinion for what little it is worth, is that I agree with the drivers, Alonso is the best, with Lewis a very close second.
I put Vettel and Button as equal. That is a big compliment to Vettel.

Gonna stand back now and watch the flak

You shouldn't need to take any flack for what you've said here. Your opinion is your opinion and nobody can disagree with that The problems and arguments arise when people distort fact.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by Beryl

Agreed. There's no way to know and Hulk knows picking would only be guessing.

Yeah but this isn't serious guys, it's just a bit of fun. There are no implications in mentioning one driver over the other or throwing out a name.

[jedrinck]

Originally Posted by 321Go

Isn't Vettel a better driver than Webber?

So let's put it this way. If Sebastian Vettel wasn't at Red Bull, Mark Webber would be a four time World Drivers Champion.

Thank you, and good night.

Except for the fact that Webber never finished 2nd in the WDC despite the car that could take anybody to a WDC.
It occurred to me that all the "latin" drivers voted for Alonso. I also think that especially for a guy like Hamilton it is near impossible to admit that Vettel is any good, it's just like Alonso keeps saying Hamilton is his greatest rival. Hamilton didn't really have a better season than Rosberg and Alonso was frequently out qualified by Massa although he did much better in the races. Yet when Vettel destroys a quality driver like Webber in qualifying and races people are quick to say it's impossible to say how good he is because Newey designed the car.

My personal opinion is that Vettel is NOW as good at extracting the best finishing position possible out of a car as Alonso, making just as few errors. Along with being the best qualifier around that would make him my choice if I was an F1 team boss.

[Zico]

Originally Posted by Bononi

I'm no fan of Vettel or anyone else, but tell me, which driver was champion not being with the right team at the right time ?

Sure, absolutely..

Some on here choose to use Mark and his failure to finish second in the WDC as the yardstick. Mark is unquestionably a 'good' driver but is not in my top ten. Not to mention Marks shocking amount of KERS and reliability issues compared to Seb, of which I'd love to see some stats and possible explanations... thread worthy in itself.

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Alonso has dragged an inferior car to places where it shouldn't. With Vettel, it's unclear how much is attributable to Vettel and how much is attributable to Newey. Despite the dizzy heights he has ascended to, I don't think people are certain what we have got with Vettel - aside from the fact he is within the top strata of active F1 talent.

I'd love to see him a team mate to Alonso, Hamilton or Kimi and if he blitzed them I'd be more than happy to hail him as the new Senna. We all know that is extremely unlikely to happen but it will still be very interesting to see how he copes if/when he or Newey ever move on to another team.

Bernie can we have a one make engine/chassis season every 4-5 years please?

Originally Posted by Paradise City

I think that's the primary issue. I think a secondary issue is that Latin F1 drivers carry a certain magnetic appeal that makes Alonso easy to forgive and to like.

Personality really doesn't come into it for me. I'm a fan but don't see myself as a 'fanboy', I try to be objective. If team mates again I suspect Lewis would probably beat him in the qualy stakes but Alonso is just the more complete package come raceday.

[davyboy]

Apart from the fact that just about every drivers' comment there is politicly slanted one way or the other, making them almost impossible to believe, what driver in their right mind is going to say something like :

"Vettel is the best out there. He has beaten us four years in a row, completely destroying us this past year."

Far better to put Vettel's success down to the car and say that Alonso is the better driver... in the knowledge that many of them have out-qualified or out-raced Alonso this year... whereas almost nobody has outperformed Vettel.

I'd be very interested in what they think after they've retired... assuming of course that they're even prepare to reveal their true feelings then.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by Zico

I'd love to see him a team mate to Alonso, Hamilton or Kimi and if he blitzed them I'd be more than happy to hail him as the new Senna. We all know that is extremely unlikely to happen but it will still be very interesting to see how he copes if/when he or Newey ever move on to another team.

Bernie can we have a one make engine/chassis season every 4-5 years please?

There's no need to resort to one make championships here. We can make a more reasonable assessment of Vettel's contribution when the Red Bull era has passed into history and we have access to the frank, individual testimonies of the players and eye-witnesses involved in this success and the individual contributions that are instrumental to such success. It's difficult to make a confident determination on that now because accounts by Red Bull officers and employees are skewered by the need to maintain team unity so everybody gets a syrupy tribute but when team unity is not paramount anymore we'll hear a more nuanced assessment of what this era was about behind the scenes. Stats, titles, points are powerful but they are indicative; they don't tell us about the qualitative human story that goes on behind the scenes, that quantitative metrics are blind to but what makes this sport such a rich human drama.

[Zico]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

There's no need to resort to one make championships here. We can make a more reasonable assessment of Vettel's contribution when the Red Bull era has passed into history and we have access to the frank, individual testimonies of the players and eye-witnesses involved in this success and the individual contributions that are instrumental to such success. It's difficult to make a confident determination on that now because accounts by Red Bull officers and employees are skewered by the need to maintain team unity so everybody gets a syrupy tribute but when team unity is not paramount anymore we'll hear a more nuanced assessment of what this era was about behind the scenes. Stats, titles, points are powerful but they are indicative; they don't tell us about the qualitative human story that goes on behind the scenes, that quantitative metrics are blind to but what makes this sport such a rich human drama.

Great post, you'd make a great speechwriter!

[henners88]

Originally Posted by davyboy

When Vettel came to Red Bull, they had Newey for some years and they were still doing nothing. He took their first win and has progressively developed himself, the car and the team into the most dominating combination we've seen in F1 for a very long time. And he's still just 26 years old ! These are all facts.

I have a feeling the regulation changes brought in in 2009 had a hand in Newey finding his sweet spot too. Of course Brawn exploited the EBD to which Red Bull implemented late in the season, but as Adrian has said, every car since has been a direct evolution. Webber won his first race in 2009 after a couple of season's chasing this goal so I don't think Vettel was the missing link here. He drove the car better than Webber and was the better driver overall, but I don't think a 22 year old with little to no technical experience was solely responsible for bringing an already accomplished designers car to the front. The car is good and has been good for 4 seasons now. It is part of the success. The driver couldn't have won without it and the car couldn't have won without the driver.

Vettel has had the best package for 4 years. No other team has offered the same consistent support to their driver and I think there lies the key to why nobody has been able to touch Vettel.

I think it is all well dismissing the car as a factor in Vettel's success but what if next season he finishes second or third in the championship? I think there are a few drivers up there in terms of talent and all they need is the right package. Domination doesn't last forever and drivers don't suddenly run out of talent. Vettel is one of the best, fact. Its difficult to say who is the outright best IMO.

[jedrinck]

I don't think the debate is about the importance of having the right equipment for a driver to be successful. We all know F1 is maybe 70% about the car or so. However if Vettel ends up in the equivalent of let's say this year's Mercedes I bet a lot of people will go on about how really not so good he is while Alonso would have done magical things in the same situation.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

I'd have Vettel because I want to have a long lasting driver pairing that could dominate F1 for years, not sort-of dominate for 1 year but in the process rip itself apart...

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Bononi

I'm no fan of Vettel or anyone else, but tell me, which driver was champion not being with the right team at the right time ?

Kimi 07?

Originally Posted by 321Go

Lewis Hamilton: "I think that in that Red Bull, Alonso would win even more easily than Vettel does."

Looks like Hamilton is not convinced of Vettel's dominance.


It would have been funny to hear Kimi's response.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Stats, titles, points are powerful but they are indicative; they don't tell us about the qualitative human story that goes on behind the scenes, that quantitative metrics are blind to but what makes this sport such a rich human drama.

and SV is decidedly devoid of any drama. a boring racer with seemingly no life outside of F1, no girlfriends, no marriages, no breakups with pop stars. just day in day out focusing on his race car and beating his teammate is about as scandalous as his life gets. such singular focus has got to be a positive attribute maybe even tips the scales in his favour.

perhaps one day we will find out if Ferrari really did offer him a contract to drive either alongside or as a replacement for Alonso. if it was for the latter i think that would answer the question of who is better.

[MarkG]

Originally Posted by henners88

I think it is all well dismissing the car as a factor in Vettel's success but what if next season he finishes second or third in the championship? I think there are a few drivers up there in terms of talent and all they need is the right package. Domination doesn't last forever and drivers don't suddenly run out of talent. Vettel is one of the best, fact. Its difficult to say who is the outright best IMO.

Fair statement I think.
The only outright bests I can think of are Fangio, Stewart & Senna, and probably Schumacher. The latter I'm not so sure of because the car has been so much the major part of F1 success since 2000 or so. Cars (or bikes) have always been a big part of success, but less so in days gone by, the driver had more to do, and I don't mean constant training, gym work, & simulator work.

[MarkG]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

... if it was for the latter i think that would answer the question of who is better.

hmm, not convinced.
I think if SV embarrassed all his peers again but in another (non-Newey) car then I would be convinced.
To me, SV won 2 championships in a far superior car, and won 2 championships with some good portions of luck, aided also by the fumbling and poor decisions by other teams.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

and SV is decidedly devoid of any drama. a boring racer with seemingly no life outside of F1, no girlfriends, no marriages, no breakups with pop stars. just day in day out focusing on his race car and beating his teammate is about as scandalous as his life gets. such singular focus has got to be a positive attribute maybe even tips the scales in his favour.

No, I disagree that Vettel is without drama. I used to watch those Gerry Robinson documentaries. They where very interesting. Robinson would act as a guru to help these firms and the firms where conventional businesses, run by conventional people in conventional industries but the human drama was immense and engrossing and people's traits were brought out under stress. There was no scandal or stuff like this but the dynamics and the human drama was just as engrossing. The human drama must be extraordinary with RBR with their constant war against the clock, Vettel is surrounded by drama.

[littleman]

Without a doubt Alonso is the best.

He should already be a four times World Champion with three different teams!

2005 & 2006: Renault

2007: McLaren.........only stupid team politics prevented it.

2010: Ferrari............only a stupid team decision at Abu Dhabi prevented it.

Let's see Vettel in something other than a Red Bull, he's still alot to prove yet.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by MarkG

hmm, not convinced.
I think if SV embarrassed all his peers again but in another (non-Newey) car then I would be convinced.

for the purposes of this comparison though Alonso has also only won a title with one team too so i dont see the relevance.

on the other hand its quite possible that neither FA nor SV are really worthy of being considered greats because only winning for one team is a negative on the resume.

Originally Posted by Paradise City

The human drama must be extraordinary with RBR with their constant war against the clock, Vettel is surrounded by drama.

it could be i dont really know what goes on in the RB garage but i do get the sense that its all rather benign compared to the drama in whatever workplace Alonso finds himself in.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

It's a fun question meant in a light hearted way to coax some witty answers out of these guys; it's not authoritative. I take it all in that spirit. Mischief it maybe but innocent stuff really. Drivers should be able to arrive at a formula in which they can give a relaxed and casual preference without sensationally disparaging the other.

I agree, but the media (and the fans) don't let them.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by littleman

Without a doubt Alonso is the best.

He should already be a four times World Champion with three different teams!

2005 & 2006: Renault

2007: McLaren.........only stupid team politics prevented it.

2010: Ferrari............only a stupid team decision at Abu Dhabi prevented it.

Let's see Vettel in something other than a Red Bull, he's still alot to prove yet.

You mean a rookie being at his pace - a rookie that McLaren wouldn't let go - was stupid team politics? Alonso should accept that there are others on his level and not be so arrogant. The only he reason he stays in F1 is because teams are willing to ignore their other driver, who sometimes - as in Hamilton's case - are as fast.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Salamus

Kimi 07?

And your logic behind this is... ??

Originally Posted by littleman

Without a doubt Alonso is the best.

He should already be a four times World Champion with three different teams!

2005 & 2006: Renault

2007: McLaren.........only stupid team politics prevented it.

2010: Ferrari............only a stupid team decision at Abu Dhabi prevented it.

Let's see Vettel in something other than a Red Bull, he's still alot to prove yet.

aready and only makes a whole universe different.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Bononi

And your logic behind this is... ??

McLaren should have won the driver's title that year. Instead they let the drivers decide it and both lost. I would consider Kimi lucky that year. He wasn't with the right team at the right time.

But anyway not really an important topic to discuss in this thread.

[MarkG]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

for the purposes of this comparison though Alonso has also only won a title with one team too so i dont see the relevance.

on the other hand its quite possible that neither FA nor SV are really worthy of being considered greats because only winning for one team is a negative on the resume.

possibly a misunderstanding here.. Not necessarily go and win a championship in another car, but certainly to be a contender by winning or leading races (reliability), especially if in a car that may not be considered the best that particular year.
Stirling Moss is quite rightly included in discussions of the greats, and he never won a championship.

[Razzzor]

I think on raw speed, Vettel is faster than Alonso. And based on 2013 alone, Vettel as undoubtedly better overall than Alonso this year. He was unchallenged, while Massa was a lot closer to Alonso than he's ever been.

I think Alonso gets the vote from most drivers because of what he's done over his entire career, and the last four years always bring the Ferrari home higher than it's qualified. While Vettel has enjoyed a dominant car.

I think if Vettel continues the way he's going, when you compare Vettel 14 seasons into his career to Alonso, most will change their mind and admit Vettel is better. He just hasn't proven it yet. He needs a slower car over a full season or two to prove it.

[Razzzor]

Originally Posted by littleman

Without a doubt Alonso is the best.

He should already be a four times World Champion with three different teams!

2005 & 2006: Renault

2007: McLaren.........only stupid team politics prevented it.

2010: Ferrari............only a stupid team decision at Abu Dhabi prevented it.

Let's see Vettel in something other than a Red Bull, he's still alot to prove yet.

If only the McLarens weren't the most unlucky, unreliable cars on the grid in 2005, Nando never would have got a look in.

If only Schumacher's engine and gearbox didn't fail on him in the final two rounds in 2006.

If only Hamilton didn't beach his car entering the pits in the penultimate race in 2007.

If only Vettel didn't retire from what would have been a win in Korea in 2010.


What if's don't just work in Alonso's favour.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by littleman

Without a doubt Alonso is the best.

He should already be a four times World Champion with three different teams!

2005 & 2006: Renault

2007: McLaren.........only stupid team politics prevented it.

2010: Ferrari............only a stupid team decision at Abu Dhabi prevented it.

Let's see Vettel in something other than a Red Bull, he's still alot to prove yet.

Isn't amazing what you can come up with when you don't let reality get in the way of things