[Driver] Alonso or Vettel. The drivers have their say.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by henners88

Vettel has had the best package for 4 years. No other team has offered the same consistent support to their driver and I think there lies the key to why nobody has been able to touch Vettel.

I think it is all well dismissing the car as a factor in Vettel's success but what if next season he finishes second or third in the championship? I think there are a few drivers up there in terms of talent and all they need is the right package. Domination doesn't last forever and drivers don't suddenly run out of talent. Vettel is one of the best, fact. Its difficult to say who is the outright best IMO.

If the RBR was the best car, why wasn't Webber rear gunner for Vettel every time ?

Vettel's been further down the order before and has systematically gnawed away at every minute problem on the car to progressively get him to the front. It's completely conceivable that RBR are wrong footed by the regulation changes next year - in fact I hope they are - but who would you place your money on to get on top of their problems faster - Alonso/Ferrari or Vettel/RBR ?

[henners88]

Originally Posted by davyboy

If the RBR was the best car, why wasn't Webber rear gunner for Vettel every time ?

I see that argument come up so often. I would say the reason Webber wasn't always second because mainly he is not as good a driver as Vettel. He failed to extract the full potential from the car. We are talking about one of the best drivers in the sport (Vettel) driving against an older veteran. Why didn't Heikki always finish second behind Hamilton? Why didn't Massa behind Schumacher? Why didn't Fisichella behind Alonso? That argument is redundant if one driver is clearly better than another.

I hope you are not trying to insinuate the Red Bull is not presently the best car and all this achievement has been pulled to the front off the back of Vettel? If that is the case I think this conversation goes no further. Drivers need a decent package and the package needs a decent driver. Vettel has that right now. Put him in the Ferrari or Mercedes of the past few years and I don't believe a driver can out perform the potential of a car. It is impossible based on pure mathematics.

I'm not here to doubt that Vettel is not a great talent, but I will be realistic about my analysis.

Originally Posted by davyboy

Vettel's been further down the order before and has systematically gnawed away at every minute problem on the car to progressively get him to the front. It's completely conceivable that RBR are wrong footed by the regulation changes next year - in fact I hope they are - but who would you place your money on to get on top of their problems faster - Alonso/Ferrari or Vettel/RBR ?

Honestly? I would say Red Bull due to the fantastic technical team they have at Milton Keynes. They understand the tyres better than any other team at the moment and I would have to say them. Based on drivers though I would say Alonso. I think he carries the experience needed and his performances over the past 4 seasons in inferior cars have boosted his worth IMO. Vettel has done brilliantly but with vastly superior equipment. If the team is in trouble and needs a driver to do his bit, then Alonso is my man. Unfortunately Ferrari are weaker behind the scenes and they could have Vettel in their car right now and I don't believe he would extract any more potential out of it than Alonso has done. If I had a top end car that was capable of winning consistently, I would say Vettel is the best driver for that job. His 4 WDC's are evidence of that.

Give it a few more years and I think Vettel will be held in the same regard as Alonso.

[henners88]

The funny thing about these types of arguments is how easily it goes both ways.

Right now Vettel fans are dealing with so many comments about it being all about the car. They argue it is not and that Vettel is pushing beyond his limits to succeed. Webber hasn't done the same so it must be Vettel.

The irony is if we see an inferior Red Bull next season, those same people will be saying he is not winning because he doesn't have the car to do it. It could so easily flip the other way. I don't want to single out Vettel fans with that statement because I think it applies to all fans regardless of which driver they support.

A great driver needs a competitive package. It is as simple as that. A competitive package doesn't necessarily mean the driver is not good enough and people need to acknowledge that.

[littleman]

This thread is about Vettel vs Alonso....as drivers.

Forget about the cars they drive, that's a variable we can't control.

Ask yourself this;

If the FIA said EVERY driver had to drive EVERY car on the grid, twice, across the 2014 season (or any season!), who would you pick to be World Champion?


For me it's Alonso........everytime.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by henners88

Vettel has done brilliantly but with vastly superior equipment.

If the equipment was vastly superior, then Webber wouldn't be so far behind... not just Vettel... but others as well. Unless you're insinuating that he's absolutely useless ?

Originally Posted by henners88

If the team is in trouble and needs a driver to do his bit, then Alonso is my man.

The team is in trouble. They have Alonso. He finished second... to Vettel... despite Ferrari's superior resources.

Originally Posted by henners88

Unfortunately Ferrari are weaker behind the scenes and they could have Vettel in their car right now and I don't believe he would extract any more potential out of it than Alonso has done.

On occasion Massa was able to extract more from the car than Alonso, so it's perfectly conceivable that Vettel could extract just as much as Massa... if not more ? Furthermore, Vettel's a consummate car developer... and it's even more conceivable that he could turn that Ferrari into something better than Alonso could. However, all these are 'what ifs'. All we know is that Vettel has beaten Alonso 4 years in a row.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by littleman

This thread is about Vettel vs Alonso....as drivers.

Forget about the cars they drive, that's a variable we can't control.

Ask yourself this;

If the FIA said EVERY driver had to drive EVERY car on the grid, twice, across the 2014 season (or any season!), who would you pick to be World Champion?


For me it's Alonso........everytime.

The problem with this point... and so many others on the thread here... is that they're hypothetical situations. There's only one answer to them all : 'We don't know'

[henners88]

Originally Posted by davyboy

If the equipment was vastly superior, then Webber wouldn't be so far behind... not just Vettel... but others as well. Unless you're insinuating that he's absolutely useless ?



The team is in trouble. They have Alonso. He finished second... to Vettel... despite Ferrari's superior resources.



On occasion Massa was able to extract more from the car than Alonso, so it's perfectly conceivable that Vettel could extract just as much as Massa... if not more ? Furthermore, Vettel's a consummate car developer... and it's even more conceivable that he could turn that Ferrari into something better than Alonso could. However, all these are 'what ifs'. All we know is that Vettel has beaten Alonso 4 years in a row.

I could write an essay in response to this but haven't got the time. No driver is a car developer, its simply not their job. They provide feedback with preferences and expectations. I think we'll leave it there.

[littleman]

Originally Posted by davyboy

The problem with this point... and so many others on the thread here... is that they're hypothetical situations. There's only one answer to them all : 'We don't know'

There's nothing flimsy about my post - I've asked a direct, simple question...
.....Who would you pick?

A simple question you've failed to answer.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by littleman

There's nothing flimsy about my post - I've asked a direct, simple question...
.....Who would you pick?

A simple question you've failed to answer.

I'd pick myself. If I was given the right opportunities, I reckon I'm just as good as any of them out there

[JacobP]

It's hard not to wonder about the bad luck Alonso had since winning his second title in 2006. Three championships slip from underneath his nose in 2007, 2010, and 2012 at the last race of season. People who know this will always rate him very highly.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by henners88

I think we'll leave it there.

Good idea

[MarkG]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Good idea

yes, it's all getting very tiresome, all this "my driver is better than your driver".. and I'm guilty of this too before you say anything.

I have my views, you won't change them.. you have your view I won't change them, and can't be bothered to anyway.

We've all deviated from the intent of the thread I think, or maybe not ?

For me, the thread is over.

[davyboy]

Going back to the thread topic for a moment. Here's what one retired driver has to say about Vettel...

He doesn't have any corporate strings to pull him one or another... but I guess he's a friend of Vettel's so maybe that's coloured his opinion.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Going back to the thread topic for a moment. Here's what one retired driver has to say about Vettel...

He doesn't have any corporate strings to pull him one or another... but I guess he's a friend of Vettel's so maybe that's coloured his opinion.

Yes, I think this quote from the article may explain how un-biassed the opinion is:

The elder German, a long-time friend of Vettel's, said he would be pleased to see his countryman beat his tallies

.

[321Go]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Yes, I think this quote from the article may explain how un-biassed the opinion is: .

... Yes, Schumacher's very unbiased opinion on how good Vettel is. Very good example there davyboy. Couldn't have picked a better person. Michael Schumacher is probably the next best person to Norbert Vettel to ask for a opinion on how good Sebastian is.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by 321Go

... Yes, Schumacher's very unbiased opinion on how good Vettel is. Very good example there davyboy. Couldn't have picked a better person. Michael Schumacher is probably the next best person to Norbert Vettel to ask for a opinion on how good Sebastian is.

You forgot Helmut Marko.

[jedrinck]

There wasn't much of an opinion in what Schumacher said, he just said he was "shocked" by the difference in points between Vettel and Webber.

[Marbot]

Not much between either of them. Although, Vettel does have age on his side and can probably only get better. A very sobering thought.

[henners88]

Originally Posted by MarkG

yes, it's all getting very tiresome, all this "my driver is better than your driver".. and I'm guilty of this too before you say anything.

That wasn't the case in the conversation you link to though. That post was in response to me and the debate over Vettel and Alonso. I'm a fan of neither driver but had my opinions on who I thought was better at this point in time. I'd like to think my opinion was more based on what I think of the two drivers abilities, rather than allegiance to a driver I support.

[321Go]

Alonso has his say on if Vettel can be considered an F1 legend:


Fernando Alonso: "Time will tell us, but I think when he will have a car like the others, if he wins he will have great recognition and he will be one of the legends of F1.

"When one day he has the car like the others and he is fourth, fifth or seventh then these four titles will be bad news for him because people will take those four days in a even worse manner than what they are doing now."

"So there are interesting times for Sebastian coming."


http://www.f1times.co.uk/news/display/08350

[jedrinck]

Silly question to ask in the first place and a surprising amount of envy on Alonso's side.

[Aysedasi]

Not really. He was just voicing what a number of people think. Nothing unusual there at all.

[jedrinck]

Right. So when Alonso finishes in 4th, 5th or 7th in his 'car like the others' people take these 2 days in a bad manner because his 2 titles are bad news for him? What does that even mean?

I have another interesting Alonso quote here, just don't know if google translate has left it intact:

If warrior manner like old man by the river by the honour Kalvi (beef delicacy), nevertheless, like always only noodle soup manner.

[chillibowl]

Sounds like he is speaking from experience....one day you are the heir apparent and a future legend and after a few years of mediocre cars you are yesterday's news with your past success becoming a liability.

the media are a fickle fickle bunch and nothing sells like stories about faded glory. Given the chance they will tear him down.

[Knowlesy]

Originally Posted by jedrinck

Silly question to ask in the first place and a surprising amount of envy on Alonso's side.

It is one of the least controversial quotes I have read in my life for god's sake.