John Wyer VS Reinhold Joest

[Edmonton]

These 2 guys have to be the 2 masters of sportscar racing in terms of team management but at both of their peaks who would you rate higher?

[Aysedasi]

Really, this is impossible to call. But bearing in mind Wyer's successes with Porsche when he was effectively fighting against another works team, I go for him. Apart from that, I like powder blue and orange.........

[Fogelhund]

I would suggest John Wyer - Running the Aston Martin factory team, with World Championship and LM victories in 59', GT40, 917 (really the team that took a rather poor car, and made it to greatness) ....through to the 75 LM win with the Gulf Mirage.

[skycafe]

You can certainly say that both were great at marshalling resources of their times, of assembling great teams and of creative thinking. I went with Wyer, but tough choice.

The last has not been heard from Joest, so maybe a revisit in a few years will find the tables having changed?

[vs346]

I went with Joest. He hasn't touched anything that hasn't won something. From DTM to LM.

Oh, and I like Wyer too.

[Kempi]

Joest for me.

917 (really the team that took a rather poor car, and made it to greatness)

Calling the 917 a poor car is kind of pushing it. Yes, it was hampered by aerodynamic instability resulting out of Piech's credo that low drag is the winning formula, but it still had huge potential. Wyer must be credited for unlocking that potential but it definately wasn't a poor car to begin with. Keep in mind that it was leading in Le Mans on it's debut for quite a bit and only retired due to clutch problems.

[Nordic]

Very hard to call.

But I think Joest just shades it for no other reason than he was a pretty good driver in GT40, 908, & 917's as well, and he beat Porsche and Lancia works teams with his private 956 victorys.

Did he ever drive for Wyer I wonder?

[PascaLM]

Difficult to vote because they worked in different periods.
I vote Joest for the LM 84-85-96-97-2000-2001-2002 victories as a team manager and his results as a pilot in 75 (4th with Casoni and Barth, 908/03), 78 (3rd with Haywood and Gregg, 936/77) and 80 (2nd with Ickx, 908/80, the car we saw at last LM Classic).

[FIRE]

Both did/do a great job.

[Kpy]

Originally Posted by Kempi

Joest for me.



Calling the 917 a poor car is kind of pushing it. Yes, it was hampered by aerodynamic instability resulting out of Piech's credo that low drag is the winning formula, but it still had huge potential. Wyer must be credited for unlocking that potential but it definately wasn't a poor car to begin with. Keep in mind that it was leading in Le Mans on it's debut for quite a bit and only retired due to clutch problems.

Not a poor car to begin with? Most of the works drivers would have nothing to do with it!

Richard Attwood was one of the first works Porsche drivers to race the 917. Interviewed about seven years ago he had a very firm opinion: “that original car in 1969 was definitely the worst car I ever drove.”
Two cars were entered for the Spa 1000kms that year – the car’s first race. Only one car started after practice demonstrated just how lethal the combination of 520bhp could be. It was Jo Siffert, hardly the most fainthearted of drivers, who refused to race the car. The remaining car was the Shutz/Mitter car, and, says Attwood, “the engine supposedly failed after a few hundred yards. I can imagine what the driver did to make that happen.”
The car’s second race was the Nurburgring 1000kms. Only one of the three 917s entered arrived. The car was driven by Frank Gardner and David Piper. In practice it was explained to Gardner that the chassis was gas-pressurised, and that if the related gauge showed no pressure he was to drive the car slowly back to the pits. “If that happens”, said Gardner, “I’ll park the b*****d and walk back.” In fact the pair put up a brave drive to finish 8th. 908s, headed by Siffert/Redman, filled the first five places.
Attwood was told he was to drive a works 917 at Le Mans that year. “The further you went down the Mulsanne, the less you could see in the mirror, because the back of the car was coming off the ground. At the kink, you had to brake and change down, not things you would dream of doing in a decent car.”
As for retirement because of “clutch failure” – Attwood again – “The gearbox casing was cracking all around the bell-housing and let all the oil out. The engine dropped down in the chassis and eventually we couldn’t get any gears because the clutch shaft mechanism was holding the whole unit up and the clutch wouldn’t operate.” So, yes, the clutch failed!
“We went back to the factory for a debrief and we explained exactly what was wrong with the car, and they promised to redesign this that and the other. Then Brian Redman went testing at Zeltweg, but although they’d changed all kind of things under the body, it still had all the same problems.
It wasn’t until John Wyer got involved with the project that it started to improve. He realised that the drivers weren’t all idiots – whereas Porsche presumably thought they were – and he reacted to the drivers’ inputs. First they removed the rear tail section completely and at once it was substantially better. Then came the upswept tail to give it some downforce, and after that, the car was just fantastic.”

John Wyer managed the winning car at Le Mans in 1959 - Aston Martin, Ford GT40 in 1968 and 1969 (same chassis) and in 1975 - Mirage GR8. Joest was a very good manager, but IMHO his victories hardly came in the face of great opposition.
Just my tuppenceworth.

[vs346]

Originally Posted by Kpy

“The further you went down the Mulsanne, the less you could see in the mirror, because the back of the car was coming off the ground.

holy cow! what a story!

[Kempi]

I have read "The Winning Formula" and I know the car was very hard to drive. Yet it had heaps of potential. A bad car to me is something that you can't improve, something that has such fundamental error that noone can change it into a winning car. Obviously, that wasn't the case for the 917.

[Kpy]

Originally Posted by Kempi

I have read "The Winning Formula" and I know the car was very hard to drive. Yet it had heaps of potential. A bad car to me is something that you can't improve, something that has such fundamental error that noone can change it into a winning car. Obviously, that wasn't the case for the 917.

That's your definition, your opinion and you're entitled to it. That doesn't change the fact that John Wyer was the person responsible for changing what ALL the works Porsche drivers at the time thought to be a thoroughly dangerous car into a great car. To my mind the 917 was the greatest sports-racer of all time.
Season's greetings.

[Aysedasi]

Agreed, agreed, agreed Kpy.

Its all too easy to give (due) credit to Joest for his more recent successes. I suggest that those who don't know that much about Wyer and the Astons, the GT40s and the 917s get a second mortgage and shell out on a copy of The Certain Sound on Ebay. Great read. Great man.

[Nordic]

but IMHO his victories hardly came in the face of great opposition.

In 85 his 956, like wyer's GT40, won for the 2nd time, beating works teams from Porsche & Lancia.

But I would say neither is better than the other, they are both legands and great in my eyes at least.

[krt917]

Originally Posted by Kpy

That's your definition, your opinion and you're entitled to it. That doesn't change the fact that John Wyer was the person responsible for changing what ALL the works Porsche drivers at the time thought to be a thoroughly dangerous car into a great car.

This is something some of the Porsche guys involved get quite miffed about. Yes, John Wyer was there at the test that resulted in the 917's miraculous change, but so were several top Porsche men, who also claim that they discovered the problem too.

It depends on who you believe, of course, but I think that it's unlikely that the Porsche guys didn't have something to do with the new tail (though they knew Mr Piech wouldn't like it!).

For further reference, see Peter Morgan's brilliant 'Porsche 917' book.

As for the question, I'm going to go for Wyer. Partly because I think that his opposition was marginally greater, but maily because the DBR1, GT40 and 917 are three of my favourites!

Joest has been a fantastic supporter of sportscar racing over the years, though, and the '85 Le Mans win has to stand as one of the greatest defeats of a works team by a privateer ever.

[Kpy]

Originally Posted by krt917

This is something some of the Porsche guys involved get quite miffed about. Yes, John Wyer was there at the test that resulted in the 917's miraculous change, but so were several top Porsche men, who also claim that they discovered the problem too.

It depends on who you believe, of course, but I think that it's unlikely that the Porsche guys didn't have something to do with the new tail (though they knew Mr Piech wouldn't like it!).

For further reference, see Peter Morgan's brilliant 'Porsche 917' book.

As for the question, I'm going to go for Wyer. Partly because I think that his opposition was marginally greater, but maily because the DBR1, GT40 and 917 are three of my favourites!

Joest has been a fantastic supporter of sportscar racing over the years, though, and the '85 Le Mans win has to stand as one of the greatest defeats of a works team by a privateer ever.

Well the Porsche guys would get miffed wouldn't they!
I have no idea what really happened, since I wasn't there. I just know that the drivers gave JW the credit for listening to them and doing something about the downforce, or lack of it.
Porsche were by no means the only team to suffer from lack of understanding of aerodynamics - in 1968 Andruet reckoned that his Alpine travelled 200 metres with its front wheels completely off the ground after the Mulsanne hump, only landing just in time for him to brake for Mulsanne corner. Gerrard Larrouse says that one of the happiest moments of his career was when he heard the Grandsire had retired the car they shared at LM that year after an accident - due to instability on the straight - and that Henri was unhurt - "I went to find my wife and I told her that I was VERY happy that we retired. The car was terrifying." As late as 1999 we had the Mercedes flying - and they modified the TRACK, not the cars (the world's gone mad) and I'll bet Mercedes never come back to LM.
Anyway my vote goes for Wyer for the sheer diversity of his achievements over a career which began as team manager for Aston Martin in 1949. Joest has plenty of time in which to catch up.
Season's greetings

[krt917]

It's true - many teams have found high speed instability on the Mulsanne, including Aston Martin with their DB coupes!

Seasons greetings to you too!

[Kpy]

[QUOTE=krt917]It's true - many teams have found high speed instability on the Mulsanne, including Aston Martin with their DB coupes
QUOTE]
Maybe, but not the JW-managed DBR1, which was the great classic British sports car of 1958/9. At least not according to Stirling Moss. Or am I missing something?
Have fun

[Steve Wilkinson]

I suspect the reason for Joest's lead in the poll is that the great John Wyer's superb skills haven't been available to see for the vast majority of contributors. His skill as a Team Manager is undoubted and he is far and away the most effective Team Manager tere has ever been in Sports CAr racing.

The final Ford GT40 victory at Le Mans is reason enough to pick Wyer!



and

[Kpy]

Steve-
I agree with you entirely. Happy Christmas !

[Aysedasi]

Well, that makes three of us. Merry Christmas to us and everyone else!

[Kpy]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Well, that makes three of us. Merry Christmas to us and everyone else!

I'll raise a glass to that, to you and Steve, to John Wyer and to all our friends on this forum. Happy Christmas everyone!!

[krt917]

[QUOTE=Kpy]

Originally Posted by krt917

It's true - many teams have found high speed instability on the Mulsanne, including Aston Martin with their DB coupes
QUOTE]
Maybe, but not the JW-managed DBR1, which was the great classic British sports car of 1958/9. At least not according to Stirling Moss. Or am I missing something?
Have fun

No, the DBR1 was fine. It was the DB3 coupe that had problems a few years before. They were run by Wyer, but I was trying to blame him for that!

No, the DBR1s achilles heel was its gearboxes, but that's another story!

Have just noticed the time - Merry Christmas everyone!

[racer11]

Wyer for me as well. Never have seen a ford run as good at LeMans since his Gt40s. reason enough for me being a blue oval kinda guy