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Old 11 Jan 2019, 01:03 (Ref:3875396)   #316
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Originally Posted by Cinghio44 View Post
Vettel maybe wasn't the choice of Arrivabene but surely they have some business together in all this years

What I criticize of Arrivabene was the over protection of the kid (he needs attention) but in doing this, in my opinion, he doesn't do the job for Ferrari. I have a lot of respect for Kimi and I think that he is still a great driver (if not penalized in strategy) but Ferrari needed someone potentially more capable of both driver. Kimi without restriction was much better that Vettel in the middle end part of 2018 championship. That add me more doubts over the talent of the german.

The impression is that the Ferrari could take Ricciardo but all was blocked by someone. Also the impression was that Marchionne didn't see anymore Vettel as a potential champion for Ferrari. The only one who was protecting him and his business in the Scuderia, for me was Arrivabene without any doubt. And Leclerc wasn't a choice of Arri because he wanted Kimi onboard again in Ferrari...
I was always left with the impression that Vettel and Arrivabene did not get on at all, and Marchionne kept the peace.
Leclerc seemed to have a lot of backing in Ferrari, I have heard him described as Marchionne's protégé, so I think the reason Ricciardo was not chosen was because Leclerc was already the chosen candidate, and I think that Kimi was let go early so that Arrivabene could prove a point to Vettel.
It will be interesting to see how Binotto and Vettel get on, and how Ferrari does with the new regime and a new driver in the mix.
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Old 11 Jan 2019, 07:09 (Ref:3875424)   #317
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This article in Motorsport magazine by Mark Hughes seems to provide a good summary of Arrivabene's leadership.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/o...riends-ferrari

"This is the man who a couple of years ago broke his usual vow of not talking to the cameras – to say that Vettel should stop trying to run the team and concentrate instead on justifying his position as a driver. He maybe took that as man management skills. Instead it lost him the respect of one of the biggest assets at his disposal."

"So we eventually arrived at the position in 2018 where the worst race team was running the best car. It wasn’t the worst race team because of the people within it – but because of how it was being led. This also seeped through to the mindset of its lead driver."
"Arrivabene’s job probably wasn’t advertised but if it had been it should have included this line: Intimidation and one-dimensional thinking would debar the applicant."

From the article it would also appear that Binotto is an excellent leader:

"As Arrivabene ran the race team through a culture of intimidation and fear, his opposite number in the technical group Mattia Binotto had convinced Marchionne of how the removal of fear could unleash much of the creative talent of the people within. Marchionne acted upon the suggestion and applied management science to making it happen – lo and behold Ferrari became the most creative technical group on the grid after years of just following the lead of others."

Last edited by wnut; 11 Jan 2019 at 07:15.
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Old 11 Jan 2019, 09:12 (Ref:3875439)   #318
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Binotto needs to sort the team out to make sure it doesn't repeat the mistakes of the past couple of seasons
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Old 11 Jan 2019, 18:44 (Ref:3875557)   #319
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Alonso should have won in 2012 and Ricciardo is a number 2 driver at best.
The cognitive dissonance defies belief!

If Ricciardo is a number 2 driver, I suppose that makes Vettel, who is slower than Ricciardo, a number 3 driver.
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Old 11 Jan 2019, 18:46 (Ref:3875558)   #320
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Vettel was dreadful that year.
Sure was! Vettel was dreadful in 2018 too.

Ferrari really need a better driver, and Leclerc should be the one.

The question is who will replace Vettel at Ferrari in 2020, after Vettel is easily beaten by Leclerc and Vettel's position is untenable? Alonso on a one-year deal may be a good choice, until Verstappen can be secured in 2021.

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Leclerc and Vettel seems to be different as driving style, so to produce a car that will be okay for both will be a tough job. Let's see what this year can brings...
That's easy. Make sure to tune the car to Leclerc's preference!

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The impression is that the Ferrari could take Ricciardo but all was blocked by someone.
While it is critical to bring Leclerc to Ferrari, they could have put Leclerc at Sauber again and brought him to Ferrari to partner Ricciardo in 2020.

By not signing Ricciardo, they will have to sniff around for another driver to be the medium-to-long term replacement of Vettel and partner of Leclerc. Possibly making a messy stopgap year in 2020 (enter Alonso), until the others are off contract in 2021. Very suboptimal.

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 11 Jan 2019 at 18:52.
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Old 11 Jan 2019, 20:54 (Ref:3875596)   #321
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Personally I would like to see Ricciardo in a car capable of winning the title. I reckon he could do it
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Old 12 Jan 2019, 11:24 (Ref:3875684)   #322
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Originally Posted by wnut View Post
This article in Motorsport magazine by Mark Hughes seems to provide a good summary of Arrivabene's leadership.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/o...riends-ferrari

"This is the man who a couple of years ago broke his usual vow of not talking to the cameras – to say that Vettel should stop trying to run the team and concentrate instead on justifying his position as a driver. He maybe took that as man management skills. Instead it lost him the respect of one of the biggest assets at his disposal."

"So we eventually arrived at the position in 2018 where the worst race team was running the best car. It wasn’t the worst race team because of the people within it – but because of how it was being led. This also seeped through to the mindset of its lead driver."
"Arrivabene’s job probably wasn’t advertised but if it had been it should have included this line: Intimidation and one-dimensional thinking would debar the applicant."

From the article it would also appear that Binotto is an excellent leader:

"As Arrivabene ran the race team through a culture of intimidation and fear, his opposite number in the technical group Mattia Binotto had convinced Marchionne of how the removal of fear could unleash much of the creative talent of the people within. Marchionne acted upon the suggestion and applied management science to making it happen – lo and behold Ferrari became the most creative technical group on the grid after years of just following the lead of others."
I wrote some years ago that Ferrari had confusion as a key part of their DNA. It is only when foreigners run the team that it achieves success.
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Old 12 Jan 2019, 11:50 (Ref:3875690)   #323
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Agreed. Under Todt/Byrne/Brawn they were well organised. Now since then they've gone back tot the traditional Ferrari way
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Old 12 Jan 2019, 12:40 (Ref:3875699)   #324
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Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
Agreed. Under Todt/Byrne/Brawn they were well organised. Now since then they've gone back tot the traditional Ferrari way
The problem is to find the right leader, a person who take the right decisions for the Scuderia! It seems nowadays there are very few people like this in F1...
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Old 12 Jan 2019, 13:54 (Ref:3875708)   #325
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I've become quite used to people downplaying Vettels achievements, however when it goes as far as suggesting the replacement is Fernando Alonso, we're into the land of fiction. You don't exactly have to be old to remember the pre-Mercedes domination era, and what happened when Fernando drove red cars.

The things that Vettel is being criticised (rightly) for, such as squandering points leads, not being on the ball etc - these are all things that were complained about when Alonso drove a red car as well. Losing a championship being stuck behind Petrov. Throwing away an almost 40 point championship lead. When your title contender is crippled with a damaged car, not even putting yourself in a position to take advantage of that. These are things that if you asked people "Which Ferrari did this?", then most would now say Vettel but were actually Fernando.

Ferrari (and their drivers) have had a problem with sealing the deal since the Schumacher days ended. There has been one exception - when McLaren imploded (ironically, with Fernando playing a big part in it), and Kimi took the win - but since then, none of the drivers have managed to seal the deal, and Fernandos bad years were no better than Vettels bad years.

Suggesting that Fernando should replace Vettel to help take a title is like suggesting replacing Verstappen with Maldonado because Max crashes too much.
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Old 12 Jan 2019, 23:19 (Ref:3875801)   #326
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Alonso failed because he was stuck behind Petrov in 2010 amd squandered a 40 point lead in 2012? Interesting take on history....

2010 was quite mysterious i'll give you that but I'd give Bernie a ring to get your answer on that one. Basically Ferrari called the wrong strategy to put Alonso out of position in Abu Dhabi but there is no need to go back over it all again.

2012?! The consensus has long been accepted that Alonso did exceptionally well to be in contention for the title at all. From mid season onwards his car was not in the frame. He hung on as best he could. Vettel not retiring in Interlagos was a fluke by all accounts.

I recall Alonso making 2 or 3 gaffs at the worst in all his time with Ferrari whereas Vettel has done that near enough every season since he joined!

Alonso would annihilate Vettel!!
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Old 13 Jan 2019, 09:13 (Ref:3875864)   #327
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Alonso is the past and I avoid to speak about him because he won't return.

That said, the cars that Alonso drove were never on the level of the Red Bull! He used his talent to equalize the disparity and with some luck he could also won a Championship (Spa crash of Grosjean...)

In that aerodinamic Era Red Bull had the upper hand thanks also to some fantastic solution signed Newey and Ferrari lack of development during the seasons, ad always...

That cars lack technically against Red Bull, the story seems to me very different now (2017-2018)
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Old 13 Jan 2019, 09:21 (Ref:3875866)   #328
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Originally Posted by chunterer View Post
Alonso failed because he was stuck behind Petrov in 2010 amd squandered a 40 point lead in 2012? Interesting take on history....

2010 was quite mysterious i'll give you that but I'd give Bernie a ring to get your answer on that one. Basically Ferrari called the wrong strategy to put Alonso out of position in Abu Dhabi but there is no need to go back over it all again.

2012?! The consensus has long been accepted that Alonso did exceptionally well to be in contention for the title at all. From mid season onwards his car was not in the frame. He hung on as best he could. Vettel not retiring in Interlagos was a fluke by all accounts.

I recall Alonso making 2 or 3 gaffs at the worst in all his time with Ferrari whereas Vettel has done that near enough every season since he joined!

Alonso would annihilate Vettel!!
2012 At Brazil, when the title was on the line, Alonso sailed off the track multiple times and required assistance from Massa in the form of assistance in overtaking other cars and giving up positions. He barely had the legs on a driver that we all know is not even in the same league as him. He was absolutely not on the form he needed to be that day. Vettel not retiring was more than countered by Lewis and Hulk retiring from ahead of Fernando. He was gifted positions that day which kept him in the title fight, even from his own team mate.

I am a big big Alonso fan, but he had his chance at Ferrari and it was thrown away in a mixture of poor shows by him (granted, not that many, but there were enough to make a difference), and some terrible Ferrari tactics. I agree that generally speaking, Alonso is one of the bst, if not the best driver we’ve had on the F1 grid in the last few years. But that isn’t enough to force me to ignore that he achieved no more than Vettel at Ferrari, and multiple titles were squandered.
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Old 13 Jan 2019, 10:54 (Ref:3875879)   #329
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To be fair Fred's only major mistake in 2012 was the first corner at Japan. In my view he deserved the title more than Vettel. To see him win the title in that undeveloped Ferrari would have been the equal of Rosberg in 82 and Prost in 86
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Old 13 Jan 2019, 11:00 (Ref:3875883)   #330
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To be fair Fred's only major mistake in 2012 was the first corner at Japan. In my view he deserved the title more than Vettel. To see him win the title in that undeveloped Ferrari would have been the equal of Rosberg in 82 and Prost in 86
That's the thing too - when Vettel has an off, even if he recovers, that's a major mistake. But Brazil 2012, the title is on the line, and Alonso is absolutely no where - he's left his skills at home, and he's off the road as well. Why is that a major mistake for Vettel, but for Alonso it's forgottten about?

Again, I'm an Alonso fan, and I do think Alonso is a better driver than Vettel. But they've both made the same types of errors when at Ferrari. It does suggest that the environment that the drivers have to operate in is conducive to these sort of problems.

Alonso had his shot at Ferrari. He had two very clear goes at the title and both times didn't manage it. Wishing Fernando was back at Ferrari ignores the history of what happened there. It's like wishing Nigel went back to Ferrari after 1992 - it didn't work out the first time, and second chances rarely work out either.

Ferrari have bigger problems to solve than the drivers, and always have done.
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