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Old 11 Dec 2018, 16:13 (Ref:3869470)   #1
Danathar
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How much faster could GTE be?

Given some manufacturers wanted to promote GTE as the top class instead of hypercars, it made me wonder how much faster could you realistically make GTE cars (without spending prototype $$$).

How fast could they get if you wanted to do it?
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Old 11 Dec 2018, 18:29 (Ref:3869501)   #2
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Originally Posted by Danathar View Post
Given some manufacturers wanted to promote GTE as the top class instead of hypercars, it made me wonder how much faster could you realistically make GTE cars (without spending prototype $$$).

How fast could they get if you wanted to do it?
I guess how much faster depends on the track.

I think all of the current GTE cars carry ballast, so removing that could gain time. I think they are also all restricted on the engine in some way - either through sonic restrictors or limits on boost, so that could be removed as well. And finally, you could give them all Carbon brakes which would improve speeds braking distance.

I think those things would all be pretty cheap to do for teams, but I'm sure all those things would lead to costs I'm not accounting for.

It would be fun to see a team do these types of things and do a few test sessions like the 919 Farewell Tour.
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Old 11 Dec 2018, 18:39 (Ref:3869506)   #3
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I think they could get close to lmp2 pace, within a couple seconds per lap at shorter tracks, but not faster. They are too heavy even without ballast and the aero is a ways off the lmp's.
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Old 11 Dec 2018, 19:00 (Ref:3869510)   #4
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Originally Posted by Danathar View Post
Given some manufacturers wanted to promote GTE as the top class instead of hypercars, it made me wonder how much faster could you realistically make GTE cars (without spending prototype $$$).

How fast could they get if you wanted to do it?
I'd also question, who of the CURRENT GTE manufacturers actually wanted to make GTE the top class? I don't recall hearing that statement or claim from any of the builders at all, fan desires maybe but actual regulations??
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Old 11 Dec 2018, 19:15 (Ref:3869515)   #5
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Looks like BMW was one if you read the article on sc365, but I think that's a reach by the writer. The dsc interview makes much more sense that they are satisfied with the m8 and being in a bop class.
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Old 11 Dec 2018, 19:24 (Ref:3869517)   #6
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I'd also question, who of the CURRENT GTE manufacturers actually wanted to make GTE the top class? I don't recall hearing that statement or claim from any of the builders at all, fan desires maybe but actual regulations??
BMW, apparently....
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Old 11 Dec 2018, 19:57 (Ref:3869529)   #7
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Good question, gte are in the 1220-1280kg range, ballasted due bop and regs.
Guess is quite possible to cut 100kg to make a min. weight about 1100-1150kg.

About power, no doubts that turbo cars and corvette 5.5 can reach a reliable 600hp from engine, with a 110L fuel tank to keep the same 62-65 minutes stint lenght.

Considering porsche 911 this year achieved 3.47.5, 0.1s faster than 2008 C6R (1150kg x 600hp x >800Nm). Just cutting some weight and giving more power, very likely 3.45 would be the LM target.
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Old 11 Dec 2018, 21:06 (Ref:3869542)   #8
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Considering porsche 911 this year achieved 3.47.5, 0.1s faster than 2008 C6R (1150kg x 600hp x >800Nm). Just cutting some weight and giving more power, very likely 3.45 would be the LM target.
2008 C6.R didn't have today's Michelins and big waiver/BoP breaks in other areas

And Le Mans track is not only shorter today but also easier for ultimate lap time thanks to asphalt shoulder short cutting available in every corner
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Old 11 Dec 2018, 22:42 (Ref:3869566)   #9
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2008 C6.R didn't have today's Michelins and big waiver/BoP breaks in other areas

And Le Mans track is not only shorter today but also easier for ultimate lap time thanks to asphalt shoulder short cutting available in every corner
yeah C6R had worse tyres and a caveman aero compared to new gte cars, but had about 80hp more, about 100kg less and roughly +400Nm to compensate.

You know, old GT2 cars had a standard 1245kg min. weight because had to stay as far as possible from GT1, but now that GTE is top GT class, why keep that weight? it's simply senseless.
I may understand that increasing power from about 520hp to 600hp may lead to reliability and fuel miliage issues, but why these cars can't simply be lighter?
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Old 12 Dec 2018, 01:29 (Ref:3869573)   #10
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Originally Posted by Chiana View Post
2008 C6.R didn't have today's Michelins and big waiver/BoP breaks in other areas

And Le Mans track is not only shorter today but also easier for ultimate lap time thanks to asphalt shoulder short cutting available in every corner
I think Porsche curves are the best place to look for lap time drops. I don't think we're talking about multiple seconds though, but surely there is more to it. I think the repave, modern tires, better aero and gains in other technical areas of the car can explain the difference. The new GTE's are also pretty close at Spa too. A 2:12.4 by the Ford GT is about a couple seconds away from the GT1 record.
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Old 12 Dec 2018, 11:26 (Ref:3869659)   #11
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Originally Posted by Danathar View Post
Given some manufacturers wanted to promote GTE as the top class instead of hypercars, it made me wonder how much faster could you realistically make GTE cars (without spending prototype $$$).

How fast could they get if you wanted to do it?
Short answer: Very.

Proper answer: They already spend Prototype money -most of the GTE programs cost well over the budget of an LMP2 team- so you're probably looking at similar costs to what the new LMP1 rules are meant to be around in order to get them to that sort of speed.

The thing is, it's not as simple as just turning up the engine power, removing weight, and using carbon brakes. The aero will have to redesigned to maximize the aero efficiency(and being limited to the roadcar base will make this QUITE a headache), the chassis will have to be strengthened(to be able to effectively meet P1-level performance AND safety needs), and this all leads to countless smaller things that need to be tweaked.

It's enough of an effort that even if it comes out a LITTLE cheaper than what "Hypercar P1" is targeting, many manufacturers might just prefer to put the resources into something new.

The fact that upgraded GTE cars were apparently proposed and shot down during negotiations would lend credence to this - it's either far more expensive than what's been approved, or the cost savings aren't enough to make it appealing over a brand new vehicle to most of those involved.
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Old 12 Dec 2018, 13:51 (Ref:3869683)   #12
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Short answer: Very.

Proper answer: They already spend Prototype money -most of the GTE programs cost well over the budget of an LMP2 team- so you're probably looking at similar costs to what the new LMP1 rules are meant to be around in order to get them to that sort of speed.

The thing is, it's not as simple as just turning up the engine power, removing weight, and using carbon brakes. The aero will have to redesigned to maximize the aero efficiency(and being limited to the roadcar base will make this QUITE a headache), the chassis will have to be strengthened(to be able to effectively meet P1-level performance AND safety needs), and this all leads to countless smaller things that need to be tweaked.

It's enough of an effort that even if it comes out a LITTLE cheaper than what "Hypercar P1" is targeting, many manufacturers might just prefer to put the resources into something new.

The fact that upgraded GTE cars were apparently proposed and shot down during negotiations would lend credence to this - it's either far more expensive than what's been approved, or the cost savings aren't enough to make it appealing over a brand new vehicle to most of those involved.
With lmp2 capped to about half milion + gibson leasing, gte is the most expensive class aside lmp1. New gte got and passed old GT1 performances and got close to old GT1 price tags too....
>750k a car and work teams budget over 10 mln a season.

Made it clear that ferrari, porsche, bmw, aston aluminium frames won't ever achieve the same stiffness of a carbon monocoque, you can cut weight and add hp but would never proper turn a gte in a real prototype.

To me hypercar spec is just a mess....
considering that the whole "hypercar" concept is mostly an aesthetics matter, the most logical and practical way should be some kind of class-one spec style.
Open carbon tub joint by a rollbar, basic aero specs parts wing/splitter/diffuser with some room for further development, 100kg/h free bespoke turbo or NA engines, 90-100L fuel tank, 2MJ front hybrid and each manufacturer can build the car it wishes.

The whole package should not be much more expensive than a gt500/dtm
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Old 12 Dec 2018, 17:28 (Ref:3869737)   #13
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Originally Posted by Danathar View Post
Given some manufacturers wanted to promote GTE as the top class instead of hypercars, it made me wonder how much faster could you realistically make GTE cars (without spending prototype $$$).

How fast could they get if you wanted to do it?
Simple answer to a simple question. As fast as the rules allow.
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Old 12 Dec 2018, 23:21 (Ref:3869805)   #14
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Originally Posted by Chiana View Post
2008 C6.R didn't have today's Michelins and big waiver/BoP breaks in other areas

And Le Mans track is not only shorter today but also easier for ultimate lap time thanks to asphalt shoulder short cutting available in every corner
Also don't forget that the GTS/GT1 cars had carbon brakes while the GTE cars have steel brakes.
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Old 12 Dec 2018, 23:29 (Ref:3869806)   #15
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To me hypercar spec is just a mess....
considering that the whole "hypercar" concept is mostly an aesthetics matter, the most logical and practical way should be some kind of class-one spec style.
The problem lies on which manufacturer will be on-board with the Class One regulations. They might be scared of committing it if the costs are not worth it other than BMW, Audi, and the big 3 Japanese manufacturers.
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