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Old 13 Dec 2018, 03:48 (Ref:3869818)   #16
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Originally Posted by canaglia View Post
With lmp2 capped to about half milion + gibson leasing, gte is the most expensive class aside lmp1. New gte got and passed old GT1 performances and got close to old GT1 price tags too....
>750k € a car and work teams budget over 10 mln € a season.

Made it clear that ferrari, porsche, bmw, aston aluminium frames won't ever achieve the same stiffness of a carbon monocoque, you can cut weight and add hp but would never proper turn a gte in a real prototype.

To me hypercar spec is just a mess....
considering that the whole "hypercar" concept is mostly an aesthetics matter, the most logical and practical way should be some kind of class-one spec style.
Open carbon tub joint by a rollbar, basic aero specs parts wing/splitter/diffuser with some room for further development, 100kg/h free bespoke turbo or NA engines, 90-100L fuel tank, 2MJ front hybrid and each manufacturer can build the car it wishes.

The whole package should not be much more expensive than a gt500/dtm
The hypercar rules look like upgraded GT500's on paper in my eyes. Except not spec chassis (which is dumb), no forced FR layout which hampers the NSX even though they've mostly got on top of it, more power, a hybrid, slightly more weight etc. A current GTE wouldn't be anywhere near a match for the hypercar rules or a GT500. Like you said, they'd need to be carbon chassis'd. Maybe the Ford GT could get close but that'd probably need serious work too. It wouldn't be worth it financially imo.
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Old 13 Dec 2018, 05:14 (Ref:3869825)   #17
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The hypercar rules look like upgraded GT500's on paper in my eyes ... no forced FR layout which hampers the NSX even though they've mostly got on top of it

The NSX GT500 is still mid-engined.
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Old 13 Dec 2018, 11:13 (Ref:3869875)   #18
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The hypercar rules look like upgraded GT500's on paper in my eyes. Except not spec chassis (which is dumb), no forced FR layout which hampers the NSX even though they've mostly got on top of it, more power, a hybrid, slightly more weight etc. A current GTE wouldn't be anywhere near a match for the hypercar rules or a GT500. Like you said, they'd need to be carbon chassis'd. Maybe the Ford GT could get close but that'd probably need serious work too. It wouldn't be worth it financially imo.

Agree, to have a spec chassis is quite dumb, but actually don't think dallara/ligier/oreca lmp2 chassis are so different each other following the same mandatory technical regs, so guess it's not a big issue, it's all about money saving.
Any info about a gt500/dtm car price ?
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Old 13 Dec 2018, 11:48 (Ref:3869887)   #19
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Agree, to have a spec chassis is quite dumb, but actually don't think dallara/ligier/oreca lmp2 chassis are so different each other following the same mandatory technical regs, so guess it's not a big issue, it's all about money saving.
IMO, the tub the one area of a car where going spec is a very good idea - it brings costs down without compromising safety and still leaves a massive amount of the car open for design by the manufacturers.

Assuming the tub is designed correctly, that is(which the Class One tub seems to be).

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Any info about a gt500/dtm car price ?
Much like in GTE, the DTM manufacturers keep that information close to the chest, but the only source I've ever been able to find that lists a price of one million euros(about $1,130,000 USD). I honestly don't doubt it as I'm told the costs to run were reduced by "around half" when the current chassis rules were implemented, and I'd heard talk of price tags just over 2 million USD at the time.

But this should all be taken with a grain of salt, as DTM is only just for 2019 switching to the new engines, and I've heard claims of savings upwards of 100K USD with the turbo fours in GT500. So the numbers are still quite....questionable, to say the least.

Last edited by FormulaFox; 13 Dec 2018 at 12:06.
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Old 13 Dec 2018, 12:04 (Ref:3869895)   #20
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honda achieved to win super gt with a carbon tub designed for FR layout....

giving for granted that anybody will be so fool again to design a FR lmp-like again, a spec cockpit wider carbon monocoque should fit good for the new class.
Making each manufacturer build it for their own hypercar, it should also appear less "spec".


1mln € + a 2MJ hybrid (that however shouldn't be so expensive by now) you get a lower 1.5mln€ for sure. A great deal considering that old lmp1 like lola B12 and ARX-03 were over 2mln€ a car and 0 chances aginst manufacturers.

Hope to recall well, about 10-12 years ago, a maserati MC12 gt1 (not even brand new perhaps) price was about 1.2 mln€
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Old 13 Dec 2018, 16:03 (Ref:3869951)   #21
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^ Price comparisons to the olden days aren't fair without

A) Adjusting to inflation
B) Taking the global economical situation into consideration

Anyway, if I had to choose between pretentious quasi spec class and blatant BoP class, I'd still take the first (even though that's like choosing whether you want to eat paper rather than living maggot soup), but I think the real disgust comes when you have both
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Old 13 Dec 2018, 16:18 (Ref:3869956)   #22
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^ Price comparisons to the olden days aren't fair without

A) Adjusting to inflation
B) Taking the global economical situation into consideration

Anyway, if I had to choose between pretentious quasi spec class and blatant BoP class, I'd still take the first (even though that's like choosing whether you want to eat paper rather than living maggot soup), but I think the real disgust comes when you have both

Aside ginetta, guess nowadays private lmp1 are a bit cheaper just because are basically lmp2 with some different aero parts. I don't include engine leasing because very likely AER P60 is cheaper than gibson used in lmp2.


All gt1 cars were in the 1 mln € range back in old days.

Insane costs during global economical crisis = death
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Old 13 Dec 2018, 18:59 (Ref:3870015)   #23
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The NSX GT500 is still mid-engined.
I'm aware. I said it hampers them because the cars were designed to be fr not mr so that hurts the nsx in the cooling department.
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Old 13 Dec 2018, 19:53 (Ref:3870042)   #24
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I'm aware. I said it hampers them because the cars were designed to be fr not mr so that hurts the nsx in the cooling department.

And yet they still overcame it to take the title this year. A shining example of how good engineers find a way.
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Old 18 Dec 2018, 22:38 (Ref:3871267)   #25
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Simple answer is as fast as the Ford would go unrestricted, as that is easily the raciest fastest car currently competing in the class. the problem and challenge would be that if you eliminated the BoP and let the cars run unrestricted, everyone would follow the Ford model and design cars that are primarily racecars and then build the homologation specials for the road, similar to what you saw back in the late 90s. You'd also see costs skyrocket like they did in the mid 2000s GT1. Sadly, take the reigns off and someone somewhere will decide that they are willing to spend whatever it takes to win.
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Old 19 Dec 2018, 14:14 (Ref:3871410)   #26
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The #91 Porsche did 3'47 at Le Mans and 2'13 at Spa-Francorchamps. That's pretty fast already.
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Old 19 Dec 2018, 17:56 (Ref:3871467)   #27
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Originally Posted by NaBUru38 View Post
The #91 Porsche did 3'47 at Le Mans and 2'13 at Spa-Francorchamps. That's pretty fast already.
If you had the aero advancements of the GTE cars today, along with today's tires, plus the horsepower GT1 cars had in the 2000's (Corvette C6R, Aston Martin DBR9, Saleen SR7). I bet it could break 3 min 40 at Le Mans you think?
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Old 19 Dec 2018, 20:29 (Ref:3871493)   #28
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If you had the aero advancements of the GTE cars today, along with today's tires, plus the horsepower GT1 cars had in the 2000's (Corvette C6R, Aston Martin DBR9, Saleen SR7). I bet it could break 3 min 40 at Le Mans you think?
well... ok, guess it's however quite pointless... it's basically like to say: how fast could be group C cars with nowadays work lmp1 aero and confidential tires ?

anyway agree; unrestricted ford gt is the ultimate performances benchmark
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Old 19 Dec 2018, 23:59 (Ref:3871523)   #29
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well... ok, guess it's however quite pointless... it's basically like to say: how fast could be group C cars with nowadays work lmp1 aero and confidential tires ?

anyway agree; unrestricted ford gt is the ultimate performances benchmark
I should probably add an asterisk To my thoughts on the Fords dominance, Which is that if the class went on restricted, ford wouldn’t dominate for long. I think one reason Ford was comfortable using the V-6 is because they knew the car would “only“ be making around 500 horse power in race trim. The car was designed to be as fast as it could with that sort of power. They knew the V-6 could handle it and the engine’s compact design gave an aero advantage.

Take away the power restrictions and that V6 won’t cut it anymore. I imagine Ferrari would either boost the 488 way up (it’s already more powerful on the road than the Ford) or switch to the V12 812. Porsche would switch to the turbo engine from the 911 GT 2 RS, Chevrolet would probably tush turbo an LS7 or a 6.2, Aston Martin with switch to the DB 11 Turbo V 12...no manufacturer would sit idly by With a car that was designed and optimize around a different level of power and performance. There would be a mad expensive rush to redesign or introduce new cars tailored to the unrestricted rules. Like I said in my first comment, it would be like GT1 in the late 1990s.
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Old 20 Dec 2018, 02:23 (Ref:3871545)   #30
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I should probably add an asterisk To my thoughts on the Fords dominance, Which is that if the class went on restricted, ford wouldn’t dominate for long. I think one reason Ford was comfortable using the V-6 is because they knew the car would “only“ be making around 500 horse power in race trim. The car was designed to be as fast as it could with that sort of power. They knew the V-6 could handle it and the engine’s compact design gave an aero advantage.

Take away the power restrictions and that V6 won’t cut it anymore. I imagine Ferrari would either boost the 488 way up (it’s already more powerful on the road than the Ford) or switch to the V12 812. Porsche would switch to the turbo engine from the 911 GT 2 RS, Chevrolet would probably tush turbo an LS7 or a 6.2, Aston Martin with switch to the DB 11 Turbo V 12...no manufacturer would sit idly by With a car that was designed and optimize around a different level of power and performance. There would be a mad expensive rush to redesign or introduce new cars tailored to the unrestricted rules. Like I said in my first comment, it would be like GT1 in the late 1990s.
Awesome?
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