Brazilian GP Penalties

[TrapezeArtist]

Were the stewards in a particularly grumpy mood today? Massa's and Hamilton's penalties were harsh, to say the least.

I haven't seen Massa's transgression on TV. It seems he put all four wheels over the second part of the pit entry line, and a rule clarification before the race made it clear that was not allowed. He seems to have admitted that he did it, but claims other people did too. If they did, I didn't see them either.

Hamilton made his one move left and Bottas came down the right-hand side. Hamilton was drifting ever so slightly right in the braking area to get the best line he could into the corner. Despite the one-move rule ,that seems to have been accepted practice all year and only now got a penalty. The one-move rule is pretty woolly, and really should be made a lot more water-tight.

[wolfhound]

I think Hamilton's move was a fair penalty he moved towards Bottas who held his line at the edge of the track. I remember Hamilton doing a similar move at Spa a few years ago and he end up in the barriers.

However I would have given Massa a warning of a penalty if it happened again.

[gert]

I don't know if the drivers were warned about the pit entry line or not.
If not, it was certainly harsh and a warning for a first infringement, penalty for a second one would have been more fair.

Hamilton's penalty seems more justified, he moved back to the ideal line but Bottas was already there. He left him little to no room, so caused an accident I'd say.

EDIT: Wolfhound can type faster than me

[broadrun96]

Of all the penalties people want to complain about these both seem CLEAR and easy. First Massa was clearly over the line with all 4 tyres plus a decent distance, and all 3 guys on NBC could be heard reacting to that. It seems like there was some kind of radio call from Smedley telling Massa the FIA was watching him and he had cut it or was close earlier. As for Hamilton, the replay from the front showed what the stewards used to pull him in. From the overhead it looked pretty clean but from the corner they were approaching you could see Hamilton's nose move back outside. Hamilton moved to disrupt a (purely stupid) move by Bottas, fine, but then drifted back out into his path. No malice was meant by Hamilton's move, more of a brain-fade, but if you know there is a (stupid) driver out there stay inside and change your angle. It's not like Bottas was suddenly going to disappear just because Hamilton wished it so.

And both were faster than me.

[Greem]

A photo was circulated to all drivers about the cross hatched area at pit lane entry, stating that four wheels over it would be penalised.

Massa did it three times. One warning, two warning, three penalty. Bingo.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Agreed that Hamilton moved to the centre of the track, Bottas drove a straight line up the right hand edge of the track, Hamilton drifted back to the outside straight into Bottas.
It's true he may not have seen him, but it was a deliberate move across the track. Penalty Justified.

As for Massa from the stewards ruling

Fact
Car 4 crossed the white line at Pit Entry.

Offence
Breach of Appendix L, Chapter IV, Article 4 (d) of the FIA International Sporting Code.

Decision
Drive-through penalty

Reason
The driver crossed the white line at Pit Entry with all four wheels, this line was
defined in the Race Director's Note to Teams Document 44 as being the track edge

Source:Stewards decision

[wolfhound]

I didn't know Massa had already been warned so fair cop.

[gert]

Neither did I. Nor did I know about the photo.

[bauble]

Massa was clearly in the wrong. Fair penalty, a drive through, for crossing a painted line, no harm done to anyone except his own race chances.
Hamilton, also adjudged guilty by the stewards, (our opinions do not matter), receives the same penalty, despite taking out another driver. Much more serious offence. So where is the 'fairness' in that?

Surely on a scale of 1 to 10, Hamilton should have been disqualified for a much more dangerous manoeuvre, that resulted in Bottas retirement and could have caused injury?

I do not intend that there should be any 'anti-Hamilton' element, if the two incidents had been the other way around (ie Hamilton crossing the line) I think the bias remains the same.

A simple drive through for all offences is not justice.

As always just one man's opinion.

bauble.

[321Go]

Massa should not only have been given a drive through, he should have been black flagged IMO. On safety grounds. He was warned by Smedley on the radio not once, not twice, but three times as a result of the stewards notifications.

Massa chose to ignore and even argued on the radio with Smedley before his drive through was eventually handed out. And then acted like a **** during his drive through!!?? The rule was bought in because of safety reasons, but Massa thought it was a silly rule, so made his own. Should've been black flagged. Or maybe he thought he'd get away with it because of the Brazilian race stewards.

Hamilton was unfortunate to get a drive through, but he did move over. Though he didn't know Bottas was there, he didn't leave enough room, and so the penalty is justified.

[stripedcat]

I suppose they were both, on balance quite fair. Massa had been warned about it both at the drivers' meeting beforehand and by Smedley on the radio. His not coming in for the drive-thorough was a bit naughty - just to try and trip-up Hamilton.

Hamitlon's was unfortunate. He sort of didn't expect Bottas to unlap himself and could see him in his blind spot - but he did move over and didn't leave him enough room.

[Ingsy]

Am I the only one who thought Hamilton did leave enough room? Bottas clearly had space to move further to the right (towards the grass) if he felt he needed too, but didn't. A stupid collision all together, and shouldn't have happened. But sometimes, stuff just happens.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by Ingsy

Am I the only one who thought Hamilton did leave enough room? Bottas clearly had space to move further to the right (towards the grass) if he felt he needed too, but didn't. A stupid collision all together, and shouldn't have happened. But sometimes, stuff just happens.

Hamilton came off the preceding corner moved to the middle of the track.
Bottas came off the preceding corner and drove in a straight line down the right hand side of the track,
Hamilton then drifting back across to the right into Bottas.

Bottas has every right to be there, why should he have to have move off his line?


Personally I'd have given Hamilton a 3 place Grid penalty for the first race of the year as well.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Ingsy

Am I the only one who thought Hamilton did leave enough room? Bottas clearly had space to move further to the right (towards the grass) if he felt he needed too, but didn't. A stupid collision all together, and shouldn't have happened. But sometimes, stuff just happens.

perhaps there was something in the telemetry which indicated that LH braked early going into turn 4, but other than that you dont really expect a lapped car to dive into the corner on the outside dirty line with the intention of making a pass to unlap themselves. and to be honest even if there wasnt contact (and i agree VB did have some room) im not sure how he would have made the corner off without either a massive lock up or going off track.

i would have just left it as a racing incident.

[bauble]

Originally Posted by 321Go

Massa should not only have been given a drive through, he should have been black flagged IMO. On safety grounds. He was warned by Smedley on the radio not once, not twice, but three times as a result of the stewards notifications.

Massa chose to ignore and even argued on the radio with Smedley before his drive through was eventually handed out. And then acted like a **** during his drive through!!?? The rule was bought in because of safety reasons, but Massa thought it was a silly rule, so made his own. Should've been black flagged. Or maybe he thought he'd get away with it because of the Brazilian race stewards.

Maybe we should just hang him

Hamilton was unfortunate to get a drive through, but he did move over. Though he didn't know Bottas was there, he didn't leave enough room, and so the penalty is justified.

Maybe we should just give him a medal

[rwintle]

Originally Posted by 321Go

Massa should not only have been given a drive through, he should have been black flagged IMO. On safety grounds. He was warned by Smedley on the radio not once, not twice, but three times as a result of the stewards notifications.

Massa chose to ignore and even argued on the radio with Smedley before his drive through was eventually handed out. And then acted like a **** during his drive through!!?? The rule was bought in because of safety reasons, but Massa thought it was a silly rule, so made his own. Should've been black flagged. Or maybe he thought he'd get away with it because of the Brazilian race stewards.

A black flag for disrespecting the boundaries of the track?

You're making a few assumptions about Massa here too - how do you know he thought it was a silly rule, or that he thought he'd "get away with it because of the Brazilian race stewards". Do any of us even know where the stewards were from?

[paddy]

The Hamilton Bottas one has me puzzled. If Bottas had passed Hamilton surely he would have been shown blue flags to let Hamilton lap him again so what's the point of unlapping yourself? I don't agree with F1's blue flags rule but a driver has to give way when a car is coming up to lap him however it seems he can use DRS to pass a car that is a lap ahead. It's a bit of a mess.

[the youth]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

perhaps there was something in the telemetry which indicated that LH braked early going into turn 4, but other than that you dont really expect a lapped car to dive into the corner on the outside dirty line with the intention of making a pass to unlap themselves. and to be honest even if there wasnt contact (and i agree VB did have some room) im not sure how he would have made the corner off without either a massive lock up or going off track.

i would have just left it as a racing incident.

finally someone that saw it the same as me, totally agree, why did bottas try and un lap himself round the outside, madness IMO

steve

[numbersix]

Technically, young Mr Webber was in serious default of the regs when he removed his helmet while still under power. A competent Observer/Post Chief should have reported it. Not being competent, I would have been tying my bootlaces while he went past, so to speak. Perhaps the Stewards were kinder than we think.

[Vepe]

Originally Posted by paddy

The Hamilton Bottas one has me puzzled. If Bottas had passed Hamilton surely he would have been shown blue flags to let Hamilton lap him again so what's the point of unlapping yourself? I don't agree with F1's blue flags rule but a driver has to give way when a car is coming up to lap him however it seems he can use DRS to pass a car that is a lap ahead. It's a bit of a mess.

Not if he is fast enough to build a large enough gap.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by numbersix

Technically, young Mr Webber was in serious default of the regs when he removed his helmet while still under power. A competent Observer/Post Chief should have reported it. Not being competent, I would have been tying my bootlaces while he went past, so to speak. Perhaps the Stewards were kinder than we think.

I felt the same way about this one, it was potentially a rather dangerous thing to do..

[fourWheelDrift]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

I felt the same way about this one, it was potentially a rather dangerous thing to do..

It was, but sometimes discretion and common sense have to temper retribution. Maybe they should have given him a ten place drop in his next race.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by fourWheelDrift

It was, but sometimes discretion and common sense have to temper retribution. Maybe they should have given him a ten place drop in his next race.

I was more concerned for Mark than anything else..

[Beryl]

I still feel Webber needs to be given a token symbolic penalty. We can't have the next young shots doing this when they win races. If Webber gets off with nothing, there'll be an unpenalized precedent for the offenders team and supporters to point towards. May as well give Webber a meaningless penalty.

[Greem]

In itself, that would be pointless. Webber is no longer an F1 driver.

As dangerous as it could have been, I think common sense has (for once!) been applied. It was his last race in F1 - any young hotshot doing it in the middle of a season knows what to expect, and should be sensible enough to understand that their circumstances would be rather different to someone at the tail of their single-seater career.

I'm pretty sure it would have been reported by some observers (and others would have been packing away or tying their shoelaces), but race control probably couldn't hear them...