Overtaking!!!

[graves]

The debate about improving the spectacle of F1 by allowing for overtaking has raged for ages now. I just wonder how you guys think this can be done.

Personally, I think that bringing back slicks and reducing the downforce by approx. 50% is the only way. they have to shift the aero/mechanical grip ratio way over to the mechanical side.

[paulzinho]

Big fat wide slicks and wide track cars, I wanna see them drifting again!!!

I think the tyre war helped alot last season, the stickier tyres meant there was more mechanical grip and the new rules meant drivers had to try and overtake instead of waiting for pistops.

Hopefully more of the same this year!

[grumpy1]

Given that the other differences in the cars I doubt that will do to much other then to catch out lesser drivers.They also have to move back to the driver changing the gear(ie Champ Cars)and get ride of half of the engine managment system which if manipulated correctly can be programed to do anything.

The Grumpy1

[paulzinho]

Minardi made it play when the Saints Go Marching In a couple of years ago. Thats when you knew it was getting REALLY REALLY ridiculously stupid.

[graves]

Reducing downforce will reduce the amount of air flow disturbance, increacing the chance of a tow and lenghtening the braking distances slightly, increasing the margin of error... Phew! Sorry!

[steve nielsen]

bring back slicks and reduce downforce, that will help.

[grumpy1]

Graves I agree but wouldn't it be interesting to find out who can drive and who's a pilot.

The Grumpy1

[Glen]

Originally posted by graves
Reducing downforce will reduce the amount of air flow disturbance, increacing the chance of a tow and lenghtening the braking distances slightly, increasing the margin of error... Phew! Sorry!

Actually that is not quite right - without disturbed air there is no slipstream to get towed along by. Overtaking from a tow, perversely, needs dirty air from the car in front - what it doesn't need is cars which are so aerodynamically sensitive that they can't operate in dirty air. Not an easy problem to solve - although I argue that it's a probem that doesn't need solving...

The true reason that overtaking is not happening every lap is that the relative performance of the cars is very consistent and the drivers are operating in a very slim window of potential speed. The science of F1 is now so refined that a few laps, just a few corners even, of raggedness and over-driving will be very bad news for the tyres and isn't faster anyway. So they drive at 99.5% all of the time, and use their experience and all of the technology to hold that pace for the entire race.

Honestly I find most of the arguments on this subject pretty daft - it reminds me of the idea of making football goalmouths bigger in order to artificially up the goal-rate for the benefit of the less seasoned viewer. In years gone by the strategic side of football was less developed and typical scores were often much higher - now the game is played differently, but that is just a natural progression in the sport.

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by graves
.....allowing for overtaking...

Not intending to take the mickey, but that really is such a worrying phrase, isn;t it? It's quite right though. What are we talking about here? OK, not quite so bad in the last season or so, but I lost count of the Grands Prix I literally fell asleep watching in the mid to late 90s (and beyond). Bernie still wants to keep coining in the dosh, but I sometimes wonder just how many of us tune in to each and every GP almost as a matter of semi-religion - its the so-called pinnacle of motor racing, so we must watch it. I can say there have been many times when I've wondered whether to bother, and the days of re-arranging my whole life around a GP weekend are long gone, I'm afraid. Am I the only person who feels that way? A serious injection of racing might change my views......

[Glen]

Oh - and it just sends me into a spin to hear folk who think that GP drivers can't drive! What are you thinking? Duh? If these guys can't drive how come a whole load of better drivers don't come along and shake up the sport?

[Aysedasi]

Of course they can drive.

But it would far better show-case their undoubted talents if they had the chance to really race and overtake each other...... I still feel 110% per cent certain that the F1 cars of today are easier to drive than they were at pretty well any stage in the past.

[Glen]

Originally posted by Aysedasi
I still feel 110% per cent certain that the F1 cars of today are easier to drive than they were at pretty well any stage in the past.

That depends entirely on how you measure easy. Sure, today's cars are easier to drive at all, and almost certainly easier to go reasonably quick in, but the driver fully exploits whatever he can and uses all his skills according to what the equipment demands. I'm also "110%" certain that the level of pace and the sheer precision that are commonplace throughout the race these days would be something foreign to driver from an earlier era where the brutality of the car would take all of their skill to keep on the road and the last 10% of finesse was rarely entered into. Before, it was possible to make a superhuman effort for a few laps and do something special with the race - now if you see a driver do that the first thing you wonder is "why wasn't he doing that pace in the first place?" - and that is a good measure of how we now take it for granted that from start to finish the driving is 100%, inch perfect and much more about skill and precision than throwing big powerslides for the fans.

[Raglanparade]

take off the rear wings. and all those stupid sidepod winglets. and make them run road tyres !

-jason

[Mr V]

Take away fuel stops and get Bernie to stop allowing Tilke to design the tracks

[stubert]

real slicks...much smaller wings...manual shifting (paddles 0k)...no traction control

[CamF1]

Were all responsible for our own thoughts.

[grumpy1]

You miss my point about drivers and pilots.I term a driver as someone who is able to adapt to any condition and still drive on the limits.One who can have a big hit one day and get into the same type of car the next day and go faster then the previous day.The drivers i am thinking of are MS,JPM and MW.Both are just as fast in rain as dry and both drive on the limit no matter what.You look at some of todays candiates and all they have ever done is race f3000 then F1.
Put them in touring car where they have to figure out braking points etc and watch em hit the gravel traps one after the other.

The Grumpy1

[Chappelli]

Go the Road tyres!

Seriously though, less aero, more rubber... I like what Glen said, but would add, that the cars are so unstable in turbulent air BECAUSE they are so dependent on aero. Take away a large chunk of the aero and yes you'd make it a little harder to draft and overtake on a straight, but you'd increase the drivers ability to be competitive with the driver in front through the corner (and out of the corner)... The only place we see overtaking nowdays is either through a draft, or out braking or a combination of the two....

[DriverT]

Another thing to do is to get rid of the new generation of 3rd-gear-corner circuits. No action, no overtaking. Boredom.

[golem]

Actually, I'm inclined to think track design and race structure may be an answer. Dual path tracks / multiple surface tracks etc. Some traditionalists may think it heresy, but personally I'm all for dual direction chicanes (One chicane on the left, one on the right. Try blocking on that!) and things like paved or higher grip sections of track in a different colour. (inside line braking zones on slightly higher grip to counter the negative of being off the driving line).

Trying stuff like that would be good.

[Smokey 6 litre]

single filament front wings, with the end-plates between the front weels, opening those tyres up creating more drag and less downforce from the smaller front wing.
Bring back slicks, more mechanical grip and less reliance on aerodynamic grip will allow cars to follow closer through corners arnd then slipstream easier.

[oziengineer]

For me, the spectactle is the speed and the whole show, and I don't have a problem with any of it, whether it be technical or driver related. I would like to see the drivers have more of a go, but the cars are fine.

[ASCII Man]

Originally posted by paulzinho
Minardi made it play when the Saints Go Marching In a couple of years ago. Thats when you knew it was getting REALLY REALLY ridiculously stupid.

http://members.lycos.co.uk/MikesF1Si...h_when_the.wav

[Glen]

People take a thing like that and try and infer that the car drives itself - just because it can play a tune, doesn't mean that it can play along with a band and respond to changing conditions, timing etc... it can't jam, it can't actually do anything like a fraction of a per cent of what a human takes for granted, and the same applies for driving.

[Williamp]

Think Formula Ford with Formula 1 engines...

Or give every team a front wing and a rear wing at the start of the season. Just before the first race. The wings have one element.

They cannot test, so the smaller teams will (should) be closer in lap times)

The downforce is the same for each car at the front/ rear extreames

Lower downforce, so more sliding/ overtaking opportunities

Or:

TURBO'S...............