Nissan LMP1 Discussion

[CTD]

Originally Posted by blankfile

Hey,

Long time reader, first time poster here.
How i see the Nissan blurryness on the rules is they want a car that fully runs on gasoline for a few laps and then one full lap of only electrical power. And i don't think it is specified in the regs that you can or can not do that. only up to 8MJ per lap of sarthe.

Seeing as they refer to the zeod so many times when mentioning the lmp1 i think this is the way it will be. Electric only for one lap every few laps.

Hello, welcome to!

This is certainly their goal with the ZEOD, however I do not think it will be the case with the LMP1. Can 8MJ power the car for a whole lap, at the same pace as the competitors?
Won't the energy recovery systems pick up more than 8MJ over a single lap?

[blankfile]

I dont think 8MJ is enough to power the car for one lap but multiple laps of 8MJ could. I think that is what they are playing at with the grey area in the rules. regenerating multiple laps of 8MJ to run one full lap

[CTD]

Originally Posted by blankfile

I dont think 8MJ is enough to power the car for one lap but multiple laps of 8MJ could. I think that is what they are playing at with the grey area in the rules. regenerating multiple laps of 8MJ to run one full lap

Then you would something which can carry that extra energy without having extra weight, compared to the 8MJ system. Otherwise your system is too heavy and inefficient compared to running a "normal" hybrid pick-up and release system.

[Starfish Primer]

How many laps would make the Lola Dryson? (2/3)?

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Starfish Primer

How many laps would make the Lola Dryson? (2/3)?

3 laps at most in its current state, the batteries only last about 10-15 minutes at full chat.

[Starfish Primer]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

3 laps at most in its current state, the batteries only last about 10-15 minutes at full chat.

Thanks Victor, still not enough IMHO.

[TF110]

They may want 16mj per lap, then they could possibly use a big storage system after retrieving that energy on one lap and use it all on the next. Or like the zeod (zero emissions on demand), use one or the other at a time. Who knows what Nissan are asking for. But perhaps their voices are being heard.

[Bandicoot17]

A tweet from racecar engineering a few days ago caught my interest



I sense Nissan perhaps wanted to do down the full EV route?
I have no idea if it's feasible but perhaps they wanted to run the engine as a generator and only have the electronic motors powering the wheels?? Of course this is all based on this comment from the ACO

I honestly think we will see Nissan on the grid, this is the surely the only way they'd realistically be able to 'guide' rule changes/additions to allow for their ideal car?

[Starfish Primer]

That technology has more sense to me, replacing the gearbox and transmission with an electric package.

[Japanese Samurai]

According to Motor Fan Illustrated magazine,
ZEOD RC is equipped also with engine + motor mixture mode besides EV mode and Engine power mode.

[vincegail]

Having a small engine running as a generator for the batteries is not full 'EV'. It still is Internal Combustion, but with a little smoke and mirrors attached to it.

The real stuff would be super-efficient batteries which last for at least 10-11 laps like a full tank of fuel would, and swap the batteries each pitstop.

And while the car is back on track, the reserve batteries would be charged by means of a hyper-efficient windmill, solarcell, hamsterdriven energy recuperating device.



EV is EV in my eyes, when it still uses a IC engine to load up, it's a IC engine, just a little different.

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by deltawing

Isn't it interesting - 5 pages into a thread of a new LMP1 program and not a single question about the car?.... I just find it interesting how the speculations are about politics, finances, power games and so on, but no speculations about the technical aspect.

+1

[vincegail]

Originally Posted by Bandicoot17

But when the full EV future is the present, I'll be staying at home watching my DVD's and BluRay's of races of the past.

I'd rather watch a slow Panoz rumbling along, than a hyper-fast EV swishing by like the ghost of Christmas passed, but without bothering Scrooge. Without bothering anyone, for that matter.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by vincegail

But when the full EV future is the present, I'll be staying at home watching my DVD's and BluRay's of races of the past.

I'd rather watch a slow Panoz rumbling along, than a hyper-fast EV swishing by like the ghost of Christmas passed, but without bothering Scrooge. Without bothering anyone, for that matter.

Diesels make little noise as well, but they're all the rave, so I hear (or not)

[deltawing]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

According to Motor Fan Illustrated magazine,
ZEOD RC is equipped also with engine + motor mixture mode besides EV mode and Engine power mode.

So if the battery is big enough to allow full power for entire lap and, as you said, there is engine + motor mode - can you imagine what a qualifying lap would be going with both simultaneously?

[vincegail]

Originally Posted by TF110

Diesels make little noise as well, but they're all the rave, so I hear (or not)

Yeah, and I don't like that either.

[Mal]

What would be the advantage of running a few laps on gasoline only then one on electric only, rather than the conventional hybrid solution of supplementing the gasoline engine at the most valuable points?

[deltawing]

Originally Posted by Mal

What would be the advantage of running a few laps on gasoline only then one on electric only, rather than the conventional hybrid solution of supplementing the gasoline engine at the most valuable points?

I personally can't see any advantage if that is a P1. But we will see the ZEOD in 6 months and perhaps it will be quite clear during the race how that works. On paper is really hard to find the pluses (from performance point of view), but the whole point of this is to see how it is going to act in a 24 hours endurance scenario. It will be very interesting to see how a battery does: non-linear and interrupted charging for about 35-37 minutes, then complete discharge in less than 4 minutes, then again complete charge in less than 40 minutes, then again complete discharge.... and this for the duration of 24 hours. I do realize it sounds simple and someone would say what is the big deal, but something tells me it is not as simple as it looks.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Bandicoot17

A tweet from racecar engineering a few days ago caught my interest



I sense Nissan perhaps wanted to do down the full EV route?
I have no idea if it's feasible but perhaps they wanted to run the engine as a generator and only have the electronic motors powering the wheels?? Of course this is all based on this comment from the ACO

I honestly think we will see Nissan on the grid, this is the surely the only way they'd realistically be able to 'guide' rule changes/additions to allow for their ideal car?

There is a followup tweet: https://twitter.com/RacecarEngineer/...49038196748288

Apparently some speech/panel/interview during the Autosport International.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Starfish Primer

How many laps would make the Lola Dryson? (2/3)?

About as many as a Hornby train .

[blankfile]

Originally Posted by Mal

What would be the advantage of running a few laps on gasoline only then one on electric only, rather than the conventional hybrid solution of supplementing the gasoline engine at the most valuable points?

You'd be able to run more laps on the gasoline tank. This way you could run 2 or maybe even 3 laps longer in a stint

[deltawing]

Originally Posted by blankfile

You'd be able to run more laps on the gasoline tank. This way you could run 2 or maybe even 3 laps longer in a stint

Do you think it will be able to do 2, even 3 laps at full speed on a battery, which will not be as big to make the car overweight? If a car can run 3 laps of electric juice and 11-12 laps on gasoline, for a total of 15 laps before going in - that would start generating some interesting advantages. But can 3, even 2 laps be possible, at speed, and within the weight?

[blankfile]

Originally Posted by deltawing

Do you think it will be able to do 2, even 3 laps at full speed on a battery, which will not be as big to make the car overweight? If a car can run 3 laps of electric juice and 11-12 laps on gasoline, for a total of 15 laps before going in - that would start generating some interesting advantages. But can 3, even 2 laps be possible, at speed, and within the weight?

Well i don't know if it is possible but if you look at it like this you can see why i think Nissan could be going down this route. I guess we all have to wait and see what they come up with. Could be something completely different for all i know.

[ss_collins]

Too much discussion on this - I'm told (by those who really do know) its really a done deal - Nissan will be in P1 in '15. Budget sign off is a formality. I believe the car is already in a CAD system somewhere near Wellingborough...

[Mal]

Originally Posted by blankfile

You'd be able to run more laps on the gasoline tank. This way you could run 2 or maybe even 3 laps longer in a stint

Why would that make more difference than using it to save fuel over a series of laps .... for instance if by using is every lap you could save 10% fuel each lap then after 10 laps you could run an extra lap.