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Old 12 May 2006, 04:30 (Ref:1606617)   #1
Pro Racer
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Should another manufacturer join v8 supercars?

i hope not thats what i enjoy watching is the holden v ford rivalry plus its an ozzie series I dont want see a jap car join and when you think of v8's in general you think of either a holden or a ford,toyota or mitsubishi dont come to mind.you hear people saying go holden or go ford,go toyota or go mitsubishi dosent sound right.
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Old 12 May 2006, 04:58 (Ref:1606621)   #2
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Just Do It! should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridJust Do It! should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridJust Do It! should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
This series is built on ancestral loyalty and rivalry to either brand. Resultingly, there is a high risk to adding a 3rd or even a 4th manufacturer as it dilutes the rivalry.

The other risk is who will it be and what are the implications? Toyota just posted another record profit and resultingly could bring an epic budget to a 4 or 6 car squad. Chrysler have been hinted at as having an interest too. Its interesting too to see the way they beef up the safety car and course car. They do make the right noise, and I am sure that they would perform really well as a race car too. The challenge is who do you add to the equation without diluting the strength that you have, and moreover how do you control their budget so they dont do an HRT or FPR and pour mega-bucks into 2 or 4 cars, and also how do you justify their entry when both Ford and Holden have largely spent large sums of money over a long period of time to get the series to where it is today?

Its a fairly tough argument
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Old 12 May 2006, 05:31 (Ref:1606637)   #3
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I think there should. The whole argument over letting "Japanese" cars in is flawed, as Holden and Ford are American technically...
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Old 12 May 2006, 05:43 (Ref:1606649)   #4
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Of course other manufacturers should be allowed in.

Chrysler sell RWD V8s, as do BMW, Mercedes and Audi, why shouldn't they be allowed to compete? They arguably are a better fit in V8Supercars than Toyota and Mitsubishi

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Originally Posted by pwr fan
i hope not thats what i enjoy watching is the holden v ford rivalry plus its an ozzie series I dont want see a jap car join and when you think of v8's in general you think of either a holden or a ford,toyota or mitsubishi dont come to mind.you hear people saying go holden or go ford,go toyota or go mitsubishi dosent sound right.
What makes it less of a 'ozzie series' if Japanese manufacturers join? Or do you consider America is more Australian that Japan?

Why wouldn't V8s in general include Toyota, Honda, Renault or Ferrari, they run V8s in F1.

How would other manufacturers stop you watching Holden vs Ford. The years of racing which built this 'rivalry' had far more cars than just Holden and Ford, and indeed some of the classic battles remembered (Brock vs Moffat at Bathurst in '72 for example) didn't even include a Holden V8.


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Originally Posted by Just Do It!
and also how do you justify their entry when both Ford and Holden have largely spent large sums of money over a long period of time to get the series to where it is today?
Considering Nissan and BMW were prepared to invest in touring car racing in Australia at the time, and were told they were not wanted, that is not a valid argument. Ford and Holden were the only one's allowed to invest any money to get it where it is today.
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Old 12 May 2006, 09:11 (Ref:1606793)   #5
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What makes it less of a 'ozzie series' if Japanese manufacturers join? Or do you consider America is more Australian that Japan
You would get the same negative reactions to the inclusion of Toyota or any other Japanese maker as exists now with the introduction of Toyota into NEXTEL CUP in NASCAR. Probably worse, as fans here are more "manufacturer" biased than "driver" biased as in the US.
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Why wouldn't V8s in general include Toyota, Honda, Renault or Ferrari, they run V8s in F1
A F1 derived V8 that would cheap LOL
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Considering Nissan and BMW were prepared to invest in touring car racing
Nissan was probably rejected because it was invloved more into Rallying(your first Love by the looks of it Racer69, going by your moniker) and sportscar racing. BMW was too much of a European luxury brand with little following in the country. Ford and Holden were selling 50% of the cars produced here.
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Old 12 May 2006, 09:16 (Ref:1606801)   #6
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BMW, Mercedes and Audi, why shouldn't they be allowed to compete? They arguably are a better fit in V8Supercars than Toyota and Mitsubishi
Really? suprising logic there. The bulk of the fans that back V8Supercar appear not to be not your "yuppies" or "dinks" the sort of people who would buy BMW, Mercedes and Audi.
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Old 12 May 2006, 23:28 (Ref:1607459)   #7
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Marcos Skaife has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
As long as it meant more than 31 cars at bathurst who cares whose there!!
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Old 12 May 2006, 23:53 (Ref:1607470)   #8
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So how many manufacturers are in V8Supercars?

A different view is the number of chassis constructors...

BJR - BJR
DJR - DJR
FPR - FPR/Britek
SBR - SBR
888 - 888/PCR
WPS - WPS


Acott - Tasman
GRM - GRM
Perkins - Perkins
PMM - PMM/TKR/RNR
TWPG - HRT/HSVDT/PWR


Duplication abounds...
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Old 13 May 2006, 00:22 (Ref:1607479)   #9
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Originally Posted by GTRMagic

TWPG - HRT/HSVDT/PWR
But from 2007 onwards, PWR is going to make it's own chassis ever since it's split from TWR/HMS in the 04/05 summer holiday
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Old 13 May 2006, 00:28 (Ref:1607481)   #10
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Geeze they are going to be running 4-5 year old cars with unintended engine configuration, a hot-potch mix of original designs and PWR designs etc doesn't sound super encouraging for them?
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Old 13 May 2006, 02:57 (Ref:1607512)   #11
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Originally Posted by Robert Ryan
A F1 derived V8 that would cheap LOL
I wasn't referring to racing those engines locally, pwr fan stated that when people think V8s they think Holden and Ford, i was just saying some may think F1 when they think V8s


Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Ryan
Nissan was probably rejected because it was invloved more into Rallying(your first Love by the looks of it Racer69, going by your moniker) and sportscar racing. BMW was too much of a European luxury brand with little following in the country. Ford and Holden were selling 50% of the cars produced here.
What does that have to do with whether they were allowed to compete or not???

They were both prepared to put alot of money into touring car racing in Australia, and were rejected. BMW in 1993 were putting in more than Ford and Holden, even though they weren't wanted and were just there to fill the grid.

If how much of a following you have determines whether you race or not, there would be alot of people not racing.

And how would my moniker give you the idea that i love rallying?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Ryan
Really? suprising logic there. The bulk of the fans that back V8Supercar appear not to be not your "yuppies" or "dinks" the sort of people who would buy BMW, Mercedes and Audi.
It is a better fit considering Chrysler, BMW, Audi etc... actually sell a RWD V8. Toyota and Mitsubishi don't.
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Old 13 May 2006, 07:02 (Ref:1607635)   #12
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What does that have to do with whether they were allowed to compete or not???
Simple the Skyline GTR and the BMW were not what most people drove in 1986. They the organisers wanted a series that had cars that the average fan could relate too.50% of all cars on the roads then were Holden and Fords. Good descision by the organisers to reject both BMW and Nissan as they had a fair bit of trouble with both manufacturers as well doing the ATCC period.
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It is a better fit considering Chrysler, BMW, Audi etc... actually sell a RWD V8
So do Ferrari, Lamboghini as well and they are as irrelevant to a V8Supercar crowd to as BMW, Mercedes, Audi which were in your orginal choice. Chrysler, YES, if they were a manufacturer here, but they are not.
Racer69 what you said :
Quote:
Why wouldn't V8s in general include Toyota, Honda, Renault or Ferrari, they run V8s in F1.
What has specially developed Racing V8's for F1 got to do with a V8 you can by from a manufacturer for a roadcar?
Quote:
i was just saying some may think F1 when they think V8s
This is a Touring Car forum. They also may think Drag Racing; Truck Racing;etc. But we are talking about V8's in Touring Car racing specifically.

Last edited by Robert Ryan; 13 May 2006 at 07:06.
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Old 13 May 2006, 07:41 (Ref:1607669)   #13
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Be interesting if any manufacture would come in and simply buy and existing team or start from the ground up and pick who they want. For example would Chrysler come in and run WPS? - picked them because of the same sponsor. Also who would stay with Holden and Ford and who would go somewhere else?
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Old 13 May 2006, 07:53 (Ref:1607681)   #14
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Be interesting if any manufacture would come in and simply buy and existing team
As the rules state , like other series it restricts which manufacturers and model types can be run.
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Old 13 May 2006, 08:33 (Ref:1607717)   #15
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Good descision by the organisers to reject both BMW and Nissan as they had a fair bit of trouble with both manufacturers as well doing the ATCC period.
What trouble did BMW or Nissan give during their time as works entrants, apart from doing well?
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Old 13 May 2006, 08:50 (Ref:1607733)   #16
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What trouble did BMW or Nissan give during their time as works entrants, apart from doing well?
Racer 69 there were problems let us put it that way. Without going into details. The upshot that Holden and Ford became the basis of a V8 Touring car catergory now known as V8Supercar.
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Old 13 May 2006, 08:58 (Ref:1607741)   #17
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Robert, you are usually the first to ask for 'evidence' when statements are made, can i ask the same?
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Old 13 May 2006, 09:20 (Ref:1607766)   #18
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Robert, you are usually the first to ask for 'evidence' when statements are made, can i ask the same?
Racer 69 Like DRT's reference to the outraged PROCAR competitor, he did not name the individual because of legal implications. My silence falls into the same catergory. All I can say that the BMW and Nissan companies were knocked back , that is factual.
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Old 13 May 2006, 09:24 (Ref:1607773)   #19
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racer69 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridracer69 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
If thats the case, not a problem then
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Old 13 May 2006, 11:38 (Ref:1607838)   #20
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Maybe V8 Supercars should move on with the times, exactly who is selling the most cars in Australia now (2006). Toyota I believe and have you seen the number of BMWs on the road now, and how many Ford and Holdens are sold with a V8. Surely Australian racing should move with the times. If BMW could race with the V8s here maybe they might have kept making the GTR (5L V8), but that would never been able to race here because it would kick F&H butt.
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Old 13 May 2006, 12:22 (Ref:1607861)   #21
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"Moving with the times" has not much to do with it. In esscence the series is about "Tribal Loyalities" like a Football game. Other makes have other series they can pariticpate in.
The same mistake of "moving with the times" has been committed by Brian France in NASCAR.
He allowed Toyota(the most popular passenger car in the US) to participate in NEXTEL Cup in 2007.
Well , it appears he may have made a major error of judgement. The number of comments in the media and by fans about "Japanese Toyota" and World War 11 have been amazing.
Toyota could be the manufacturer that could ruin NASCAR.
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Old 13 May 2006, 23:44 (Ref:1609111)   #22
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Give them 5yrs to get used to it and they will be part of the scenery...
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Old 14 May 2006, 02:24 (Ref:1609157)   #23
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the yanks were upset when Dodge came back
and I still notice that Dodge still are often boxed out or forced out even now
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Old 14 May 2006, 04:00 (Ref:1609208)   #24
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Give them 5yrs to get used to it and they will be part of the scenery...
The Crowd that follows NASCAR is nothing like the IRL/CCWS fans. I very much doubt it, very conservative and very long memories.
Many of them( Commentators and fans)act like World War 2 is still going on, the depth of ill feeling is very strong.

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Old 14 May 2006, 06:13 (Ref:1609231)   #25
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Like some others have said, you have to be able to add a third manufacturer without reducing the appeal to the majority of fans. I just enjoy motorsport and don't care what brand races (I could never see myself buy a commodore or falcon in my life) or if the vehicle has 2 or 4 wheels but have a look at the majority of the people at the races. They have had a ford or holden tatoo on them since birth (metaphorically of course........... in most cases). They don't religously follow all sorts of motorsport, they just like holden and ford v8s.

I can't see the AVERAGE v8 supercar fan wanting to see anyone other than Ford or Holden. This is the reason there are 2 marques. If the powers that be thought that it would bring more fans rather than alienate people, there would be more marques.

I would much rather watch multiple manufactures, but I just don't think that is what will bring people through the gates.
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