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Old 1 Sep 2020, 13:27 (Ref:3999444)   #301
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Originally Posted by Aysedasi View Post
Not exactly 'trying to cause trouble' though is it. Statements like that from drivers about rivals are ten-a-penny...
Gamesmanship and sewing the seeds of discontent all round.
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Old 1 Sep 2020, 13:45 (Ref:3999448)   #302
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Hardly a new approach in F1, and a considerable exaggeration, I'd say.....
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Old 1 Sep 2020, 13:45 (Ref:3999449)   #303
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Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star View Post
Obviously we don't know each other and I'm new. But having followed the ebb and flow of the thread and your exchanges with bjohnsonsmith. It seems you're saying that Bottas sacrificing the 2018 Russian GP is the same as Hamilton handing back 3rd place at the 2017 Hungarian GP.

You also suggested Hamilton returned the favour last year. Which race was this?


Aside from Austria in 2002, I can't think of anything more blatant and unnecessary.
Wasn’t trying to say that at all

I was simply putting my opinion forward that I thought the Austria situation in 2002 was far worse than Russia in 2018.

I brought into Hungary to show that Hamilton is capable of being a team player and handing places back too

This was all in response to BJs comment that Bottas may not have been allowed to win at the weekend....and brought up Russia as an example that Mercedes have imposed team orders...

....Russia in 2018 when Bottas was out of the championship is hardly comparable to 2002 Austria
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Old 1 Sep 2020, 14:56 (Ref:3999462)   #304
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Hamilton coulduse a similar beefy engine mode to defend his position, but he may not necessarily do so. If he doesn't and Bottas closes in, Bottas can then take advantage of any error Hamilton makes (Like he did at the chicane), or that moment of power loss. Once he's in the lead, then he can manage the engine. It also changes who has the better treatment in pit stops (In theory).
didnt Bottas have an issue at that same final corner a lap or two later?

forgetting about prior seasons, we have seen LH make more of his tires then Bottas this year...what would indicate that LH coulndt likewise do more with an overstressed engine then Bottas?

already we have seen LH ask to do more with a potentially suspect merc engine (wiring issues early on this season) and do more with dying tires. heck LH may even be faster then VB on 3 wheels.

again each their own, but i think if both had more beef (great way to describe it btw), LH, maybe just by virtue of having more experience, is the safer pair of hands to bring the car home.

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As it stands, Bottas has to run a car tailored for Hamilton. He isn't allowed to be more aggressive, and never get the benefit of possible alternative pit strategies (whereas Hamilton has).
'setup' didnt stop Leclerc from surpassing his world titled team mate who had been at the team longer and also presumably had far more input in their cars design and set up. overcoming those issues is what top level talent is supposed to do.

anyways, i think the setup argument is mainly used to prop up the 2nd driver.

moot point anyways as i dont think i have ever heard setup being the reason Bottas is slower.

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Bottas doesn't get paid to win. He gets paid to do the minimum, sacrifice his performances and results, and put up with fans diminishing him. That's why he keeps getting a contract.

I thought this was common knowledge?
falling short of a driver who has 89 wins is not diminishing Bottas imo and his contract is relatively minor compared to LH because the more talented athlete is typically the one who gets paid more.

is he there because he is reliable and knows how to play 2nd fiddle...probably but im not sure any would pick Bottas to be a lead driver over Max or Leclerc either. or if we could pick any team mate for LH while being assured that team mate could challenge LH openly would Bottas be the first choice?



not directed at you but a general observation, but much like the schumi years, there is this narrative (as seen by the still ongoing team orders greatest hits debate) that the dominating team somehow and for some inexplicable reason picked the less talented driver to lead their team.

without Schumi or Ham, their team mates would most likely not have had the dominating car in the first place.

Barri got beaten by Button and Bottas, who by virtue of being younger, will more likely have other future team mates for us to compare against. time will tell if he has been underrated or shortchanged.
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Old 1 Sep 2020, 15:34 (Ref:3999466)   #305
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'setup' didn't stop Leclerc from surpassing his world titled team mate who had been at the team longer and also presumably had far more input in their cars design and set up. overcoming those issues is what top level talent is supposed to do.
A few comments. Regarding Vettell vs. LeClerc. Taking nothing away from LeClerc as I think he is the real deal, I think that was a combination of moving up at the same time Vettell was moving down.

I also think the situations (and strategy regarding teammates) are different at Mercedes and Ferrari. Mercedes is on the top and has probably the best driver on the grid and that driver is killing it. If they can preserve the ongoing string of wins with Bottas on the podium or ideally in 2nd place, they will not want to mess that up. Ferrari on the otherhand will take success from whereever they can find it. If that means their #2 out scoring their #1, then they would be happy.

In short, do teams hold back their #2 at times. Yes, I firmly believe it happens (per my comments above). I think at times that is done to Bottas. I also don't think Bottas given free reign would surpass Hamilton over the course of a season. I also tend to think Bottas is likely in a bad situation in that Mercedes has categorized him (just as I have) and that he will not (in general) be given free reign to challenge Hamilton. If #1 is performing well (especially at Lewis' level), this can be a nearly impossible situation for the #2 if the team is not fully supporting you.

I do think that qualifying is generally open/equal at Mercedes. However all things being equal, if the pair is relatively on the same strategy and Hamilton is up front late race, Mercedes would be happy to just let thing finish in that order. Especially if that allows them to not stress the power units and save the performance for when they need it (racing a non-Mercedes driver).

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Old 1 Sep 2020, 16:17 (Ref:3999473)   #306
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For me, it’s clear Merc do it the traditional way, if you can call it that. I.e. they let the drivers race at the start and let the results decide who is no. 1 and no. 2
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Old 1 Sep 2020, 16:25 (Ref:3999478)   #307
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Gamesmanship and sewing the seeds of discontent all round.
I don't really buy this.

I mean it is possible Hamilton could be trying to unsettle a driver that has not been near him all year save for a freak situation in the first race.

Also could be possible he is trying to drive a wedge between the two Red Bull drivers by... erm, not quite sure how this would work either actually. Max will be just fine I am sure.

It struck me as just him thinking aloud to be honest, but there isn't anything to take issue with in what he said. He spoke of what we all see and Albon could perhaps use it as motivation to do better.
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Old 1 Sep 2020, 21:34 (Ref:3999527)   #308
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I don't really buy this.

I mean it is possible Hamilton could be trying to unsettle a driver that has not been near him all year save for a freak situation in the first race.

Also could be possible he is trying to drive a wedge between the two Red Bull drivers by... erm, not quite sure how this would work either actually. Max will be just fine I am sure.

It struck me as just him thinking aloud to be honest, but there isn't anything to take issue with in what he said. He spoke of what we all see and Albon could perhaps use it as motivation to do better.
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Old 6 Sep 2020, 09:49 (Ref:4000381)   #309
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Is it wrong that I still see the Mercedes F1 team as Tyrrell
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Old 6 Sep 2020, 11:28 (Ref:4000390)   #310
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Is it wrong that I still see the Mercedes F1 team as Tyrrell

No it’s not wrong, shows how well they have recovered from those days
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Old 6 Sep 2020, 18:41 (Ref:4000579)   #311
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Is it wrong that I still see the Mercedes F1 team as Tyrrell
I think of them as Reynard!

It was just the Tyrrell entry that BAR bought wasn't it?
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Old 6 Sep 2020, 18:44 (Ref:4000581)   #312
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Unlike Andrea Moda who only bought Coloni’s equipment
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Old 6 Sep 2020, 22:12 (Ref:4000637)   #313
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Unlike Andrea Moda who only bought Coloni’s equipment
Thought it was a dormant Wirth/BMW mule?

Back to Merc both Hamilton and Bottas had to spend an awful lot of time noving out of the slipstream of the car in front of them. Several times reference was made (inside and outside of the team) to cooling issues and the car really not liking being stuck in traffic as it is only designed to run in clean air at the front.
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Old 7 Sep 2020, 07:59 (Ref:4000687)   #314
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The end is clearly nigh....
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Old 7 Sep 2020, 08:05 (Ref:4000690)   #315
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Thought it was a dormant Wirth/BMW mule?
It was originally the Coloni C4, but were kicked out of the SA GP, as they hadn't actually bought the entry
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Old 7 Sep 2020, 14:12 (Ref:4000765)   #316
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The end is clearly nigh....
Poor old Lew's eyesight is going and Bottas has old timers!
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Old 12 Sep 2020, 09:42 (Ref:4001825)   #317
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Wasn’t trying to say that at all

I was simply putting my opinion forward that I thought the Austria situation in 2002 was far worse than Russia in 2018.

I brought into Hungary to show that Hamilton is capable of being a team player and handing places back too
Yep.

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This was all in response to BJs comment that Bottas may not have been allowed to win at the weekend....and brought up Russia as an example that Mercedes have imposed team orders...

....Russia in 2018 when Bottas was out of the championship is hardly comparable to 2002 Austria
Yep. Team orders is obviously a weird, grey area.

Bottas was out of the championship race, but Vettel was almost out of it as well. To justify team orders as blatant as that over a lightest of threats to a title win was pretty lame. Whatever there was to gain wasn't worth what was lost, and I think they should've erred the other way.

Bottas gets diminished for not winning a race that year and being so compliant to team orders, and Hamilton/MB's success is blotted.

I'd be more comfortable with any partiality MB are trying to project if I saw Bottas winning, or threatening to beat Hamilton due to alternate pit strategies while trailing Hamilton. I've never seen that, but I have seen the other way.
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Old 12 Sep 2020, 10:01 (Ref:4001832)   #318
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didnt Bottas have an issue at that same final corner a lap or two later?

forgetting about prior seasons, we have seen LH make more of his tires then Bottas this year...what would indicate that LH coulndt likewise do more with an overstressed engine then Bottas?

already we have seen LH ask to do more with a potentially suspect merc engine (wiring issues early on this season) and do more with dying tires. heck LH may even be faster then VB on 3 wheels.

again each their own, but i think if both had more beef (great way to describe it btw), LH, maybe just by virtue of having more experience, is the safer pair of hands to bring the car home.



'setup' didnt stop Leclerc from surpassing his world titled team mate who had been at the team longer and also presumably had far more input in their cars design and set up. overcoming those issues is what top level talent is supposed to do.

anyways, i think the setup argument is mainly used to prop up the 2nd driver.

moot point anyways as i dont think i have ever heard setup being the reason Bottas is slower.



falling short of a driver who has 89 wins is not diminishing Bottas imo and his contract is relatively minor compared to LH because the more talented athlete is typically the one who gets paid more.

is he there because he is reliable and knows how to play 2nd fiddle...probably but im not sure any would pick Bottas to be a lead driver over Max or Leclerc either. or if we could pick any team mate for LH while being assured that team mate could challenge LH openly would Bottas be the first choice?



not directed at you but a general observation, but much like the schumi years, there is this narrative (as seen by the still ongoing team orders greatest hits debate) that the dominating team somehow and for some inexplicable reason picked the less talented driver to lead their team.

without Schumi or Ham, their team mates would most likely not have had the dominating car in the first place.

Barri got beaten by Button and Bottas, who by virtue of being younger, will more likely have other future team mates for us to compare against. time will tell if he has been underrated or shortchanged.
I wasn't talking about set up. I was talking about hardware of the car that you can't easily change (or at all). That would contribute to Bottas chewing his tyres up all the time.

I'd make a statement by saying that MB (car and team) is designed around Hamilton winning and Bottas running 2nd. With a 1-2 in that order, MB are satisfied and move onto the next race.

If a 1-2 occurred the other way. MB might still be satisfied, but I presume would enquire as to why Hamilton didn't win, when they wouldn't in the scenario above.

I don't think MB go into races intending to give Bottas 100% support to win.
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Old 12 Sep 2020, 10:20 (Ref:4001835)   #319
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I'm sure you're right. And I'd go so far as to venture, 'Why would they want it any other way?' They saw what happens when someone is able to raise their game and challenge Hamilton (Rosberg at his peak), so why would they want that to happen again?
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Old 12 Sep 2020, 23:52 (Ref:4002027)   #320
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The suggestion is that Mercedes are about to sell a 70% share in the team for a truly obscene amount of money, however the source is definitely questionable.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.d...e-F1-team.html
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Old 13 Sep 2020, 00:30 (Ref:4002035)   #321
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Ahhhhhh, you made me click on a Daily Mail link.
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Old 13 Sep 2020, 17:14 (Ref:4002232)   #322
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Ahhhhhh, you made me click on a Daily Mail link.
The Daily Mail banging on about German car manufacturers?
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Old 13 Sep 2020, 19:57 (Ref:4002279)   #323
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Looks like the end is not nigh after all.....
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Old 15 Sep 2020, 11:09 (Ref:4002568)   #324
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Toto stringently denying any rumoured buyout.

But he would though wouldn't he?
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Old 15 Sep 2020, 11:52 (Ref:4002581)   #325
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According to this, Toto Wolff is quitting as Team Principal and moving to the team’s supervisory board.

https://f1-insider.com/en/formula1/m...eam-principal/
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