Safety Car procedure. Time for a change? Discuss...

[Stuart Hill]

Ok, just to start with, this thread is in NO way meant as a "dig" at any Circuit/Committee/Organiser/Official or anyone else involved in the organising of motorsport in the UK or any other country, but please add to this thread as I truly believe there is a way to "Shut-Down" racing (at club level) without the need for Land-lines/Radio Comms/Lots of Lights etc..

IS THERE ANOTHER WAY TO DO THINGS?

IMHO, if a situation occurs that warrants a Safety Car, the Yellow Flags and S/C Boards should travel BOTH ways around the circuit from the Startline. (just like a Red Flag situation) This way, ALL racing is suspended a lot sooner (ie, no cars racing back to start-line), overall lap-times are reduced, which equals less "non-racing" laps and more time for marshals to clear incident.

Sounds perfect but I have my own opinions of the pro's and the con's, and will so post from my limited standing as Experienced Incident and Flag Marshal for over 20yrs.

So, at Circuit A, Post 5 - Multiple cars into barriers and one left on track. No cameras for C of C, and Observer/PC calls for Red Flag/Safety Car.

Given Safety Car but - leaders are now approaching Post 3 and rest of pack at Post 1, GOD HELP POST 5 !!!!!!!!!

But, if upon the C of C agreeing, the Safety Car boards were displayed immediately, the following COULD happen:-

ALL posts display a Waved Yellow and S/C Board,
Post with Incident displays Double Waved Yellow,
ALL drivers slow to "Controlable Speed" (see below)

Result:- Whole circuit slows-down, all personnel now having to be track-side are safer (Driver/Marshal/Doctor/Rescue),
number of laps under S/C are reduced,
number of racing laps increased.

OK, so far everyone's a winner, but (and you knew there was a but!)

What about the cars trying to catch-up to the Safety Car? Well, what about them I say???? They were behind before, why should they now be close?
Just imagine, my teammate is going for the "Championship" but is 30 secs behind the leader. I'm nowhere so park my car in the gravel, right on the edge of the track. S/C comes out and my teammate now has a chance.

But, if the Observers/Post Chiefs were given the authority to report drivers that they thought were "driving with excess speed" and knew that the C of C would take appropriate action if enough reports came in, then the drivers would not drive too fast to "catch-up" as they would risk being excluded.

All of this comes back to my original point. Why should any driver benefit from a Safety Issue. If they were 30 secs behind when an incident happened, why shouldn't they still be 20 secs after it?

If a Safety car has to be deployed (certain series excepted) then it is because of SAFETY and NOTHING else matters. SHUT THE TRACK DOWN racing wise, let the various people deal with the incident and then, but only then, go racing again.



As I said at the start, I fully expect people to find holes in my very simplistic theory, but..... there has to be a way to make this work and I'd love to hear it.

[Norbert]

Stuart may have put forward a simplistic theory but to my simple mind I cannot see any flaws in it from a safety and marshalling point of view. In Stuart's scenario the only real safe option would be use of the dreaded red flag under current safety car procedures.

Combine Stuart's propsal with all posts displaying green flag (both ways round the circuit) at the end of the safety car period (with no overtaking before the startline) and it works for me!

I am sure the powers that be will say that they have considered it before but dismissed it for some reason, not least that it might not bunch the whole field up (therefore not as good for TV!)

[stroller]

Didn't the old "quarter" flag cover some of these points.

Put that out all round the circuit from both directions, neutralise the race at once and would still give the post with the incident chance to use waved yellows etc

[terence]

I thought the idea of bunching up the cars was to have all cars on just one part of the circuit at one time,there fore giving a better window for Marshals/Recovery teams to opperate.One potential problem is with the drivers who have been waved past the Safety car blasting off trying to capitalise on the situation and not driving accordingly.

[Paul Newns]

I'd settle for just one set of safety car regs for all series, including TOCA, F3/GT. As has been said, the old "battenberg" could have worked if all of the clubs had used it and all of the drivers had understood what they were meant to do.

[Bryan Degerlund]

Fully agree with Terence and Paul. Recently at Brands Hatch, where driver changes took place in a safety car period, cars leaving the pitlane saw the SC boards, slowed and at one stage were almost caught by the safety car and "train". Possibly the EERC ruling of pitlane only being open for 30 seconds after the safety car passes would cut out the rogue speedsters.

I believe in the Middle East there is now a V60 flag, which is similar to the "battenberg" and requires all drivers to slow to 60kmh. Laptimes can be compared to a target time and action can be taken against those not complying. Maybe one of our Dubai regulars can advise success?

[Piglet]

I can't see we'll ever go back to the "Battenburg" flag, but I agree with SC yellows and boards going both ways around the circuit, we have discussed this a number of times before I think.

One of the scariest things I've seen is F3 coming round Deer Leap at Oulton at the end of one of the first laps (so tight pack) to meet the SC board on the startline, the front of the pack slowed up and the back of the pack barrelled on round to discover the field slowing in front of them long before the back of the pack actually got to the SC board. Result = near carnage.

[Bodysnatcher]

the code 60 flag is brilliant.

Drivers get taught what a 60kph lap is like by following a safety car round during a practice session - allows them to calibrate the tacho. It's pretty slow. Penalties are draconian - easy to apply from the timekeepers data

[PieMan]

Originally Posted by terence bower

One potential problem is with the drivers who have been waved past the Safety car blasting off trying to capitalise on the situation and not driving accordingly.

They have nothing to gain by doing this but they are supposed to speed up in order to catch the back of the train. The race shouldn't be restarted until they have done so because the leaders might catch them before they know that the SC period has ended. Maybe this is why in F1 all posts now appear to go green simultaneously (see other thread). Recently somebody, with other cars behind them, was black flagged for not going fast enough to catch up so perhaps the SC should simultaneously slow down a bit. When cars are let by (and they aren't always), it doesn't usually happen until the 'emergency' is under control.

[PieMan]

Originally Posted by Piglet

One of the scariest things I've seen is F3 coming round Deer Leap at Oulton at the end of one of the first laps (so tight pack) to meet the SC board on the startline, the front of the pack slowed up and the back of the pack barrelled on round to discover the field slowing in front of them long before the back of the pack actually got to the SC board. Result = near carnage.

There WAS carnage once in an F3 race at Donington and even worse at Mallory Park (although that was for a battenburg). Drivers should not jump on the brakes but they shouldn't have to and sometimes it appears that the SC doesn't get up to speed soon enough. Fair enough if it's deployed at the start of a race it waits for the field to come round but it must get moving in time to avoid the situation that Piglet has described.

[breakdown4]

From a recovery point of view we had to recovery Thomson from the middle of the track between the complex and noble at thruxton,folowed the pack round behind the safety car then in the middle of a lift on the wreck had a touring car that had pitted come at us at raceing speed trying to catch up the pack! A very scary moment as we where between the back of the truck and the car under recovery! So yes they need slowing down in situation's like that with a big yellow breakdown truck my crew plus marshalls it could of been nasty

[Asp]

Originally Posted by PieMan

Recently somebody, with other cars behind them, was black flagged for not going fast enough to catch up so perhaps the SC should simultaneously slow down a bit.

At least twice this season at meetings I've been at, the SC has been told to slow to a crawl to allow the pack to form up properly.
On one occasion it was half-way round the first lap of intervention - the pack was well strung out and needed to be formed into a pack to allow marshals time to shift a car safely. Building such a big gap quickly meant that the SC period was condensed into a very short period of time.

On the other occasion though, there were two distinct packs circulating, one car definitely not going 'fast enough' to catch the train (at least not within any short period of time). So, it's a difficult balancing act - no doubt we'd moan if they were going to fast.


My suggestion, FWIW - find all the old battenburg flags lying around and use them as a "Safety Car Flag". The incident zone (and, in addition, any additional problem that sometimes occur) can therefore clearly be marked with supplementary yellow flags indicating to the drivers that they must slow down in that particular sector. With the rest of the circuit purely under Battenburg flags, this can mean "No overtaking, drive well within your limits, but you don't actually have to go really slowly until you're in the train"

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Asp

My suggestion, FWIW - find all the old battenburg flags lying around and use them as a "Safety Car Flag". The incident zone (and, in addition, any additional problem that sometimes occur) can therefore clearly be marked with supplementary yellow flags indicating to the drivers that they must slow down in that particular sector. With the rest of the circuit purely under Battenburg flags, this can mean "No overtaking, drive well within your limits, but you don't actually have to go really slowly until you're in the train"

[Bodysnatcher]

sorry Asp, but any "safety car flag" that allows drivers to decide what is within their limits is doomed to fail.

Their safe speed may not be my safe speed. How many times have we seen drivers lose it under yellows - (and we all know what the definition in the blue book is) - measurable reduction in speed in a local yellow area is just not possible.

The code 60 flag that the Dutch organisation use is the size of an FIA red and adherence to it's command is subjectively measured. It allows (roughly) gaps to be maintained and avoids the scenario of cars at the back "racing" to catch up with the chain.
Battenburg was good when I saw it used, but code 60 better - nobody races.

In my opinion it feels safer to work trackside under a code 60 where they're all doing 60kph +/- 5 (I guess) than it is to attempt a live snatch on a blind bend under double yellows (!) or under a safety car where "rougue" cars can still be racing.

Worst incident where safety car deployment did not achieve the required result. British FF championship, Brands 2007, startline incidents. Was sure I had a fatal there. Closest call under safety car - **** losing it in a Group C2 through paddock whilst trying to catch up - me out in gravel talking to the last one that lost it through the same corner.

[bluebeard]

Originally Posted by Piglet

One of the scariest things I've seen is F3 coming round Deer Leap at Oulton at the end of one of the first laps (so tight pack) to meet the SC board on the startline, the front of the pack slowed up and the back of the pack barrelled on round to discover the field slowing in front of them long before the back of the pack actually got to the SC board. Result = near carnage.

normal procedure at Oulton because of visibility is to show the SC board at Deer Leap simultaneously with strart line as a pre-warning that it is coming, you can show drivers any signal but you cant make them see them!

[Asp]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

sorry Asp, but any "safety car flag" that allows drivers to decide what is within their limits is doomed to fail.

I'd say that, at the minute, it's already up to drivers what's in their limit under existing SC conditions when trying to catch up with the train.

Changing it to flags will just make it much more obvious where the hazards are than at present as everyone displays a yellow flag. I know that the 'standard' SC Regs do allow for a second yellow flag to be displayed "where additional hazards are present" - but you need to find somewhere to shove it when you're already holding a big board, waving one flag, and your incident team are playing in the gravel so can't help either!!

Personally, I'd rather the cars were in a train when dealing with an incident under SC conditions. As you say, cars can go off at any speed - including at 60km/h - whereas under present regs there is likely to be a gap when nothing's coming at you. If there's nothing coming, nothing can hit you!
Yes, you need to be aware of stragglers chasing up the field - but making it extra clear where the hazards are makes it more likely they'll slow down sufficiently; and you'll always have that one eye open to run away if required.

[Woolley]

Champ Car (not sure about other American series) display safety car by using two stationary flags end to end (hard to describe, but put the handles together and hold in the middle so you end up with effectively one flag of double width). Upon seeing it all cars slow. The flag goes both ways round the circuit, as for red flag, and is also called over comms. That last bit would be nice, but isn't necessarily practical at the moment. It works a treat. It also means that you don't need extra flags, boards, etc, which can be difficult to display properly if you're on your lonesome. Back the whole lot up with yellow lights at circuits where they exist.

The safety car comes out once the cars have slowed in front of the leader. That works too.

The bit I'd add to that is that once the incident is cleared, the SC switches off his lights which is the signal for all yellow flags to be withdrawn, again going both ways around the circuit, with white flag when the last car is in your sector (to warn cars still trying to catch up). Racing resumes once the green flag is seen at the start line. Best done the same way as a rolling start at the moment, with the cars maintaining speed on the run to the line until the starter decides OK to go. At this point all cars are allowed to race even if not yet at the start line - don't go for this no overtaking until you've crossed the line bit. Hard to judge, difficult to enforce and penalises the alert driver.

I'd dump the green flag at all posts. Once you've seen it at the start line you know you're racing, and it slows down the lone flaggie who has to put down the green in order to wave the yellow if there's a new incident.

[Rich D]

Woolley said most of what I was going to say -- here in Canadia, we get the call for Full Course Yellow, and the whole circuit goes Double Steady Yellow, effectively netralising the whole race at once. We have a landline, so can do this relatively quickly, but the both ways round the circuit idea seems a good one without that facility. Corner with the incident flags normally (waved)

Only thing that happens then, is that some clearks have a tendancy to want to wait until the leaders are 2/3 corners from the startline to throw the FCY, so the pace car can pick them up easily, and that can cause an up to 2 lap delay - not nice if you are the corner with the incident.

My belief is it is better to throw the yellows immediately, then once the incident is under control, do wave-by's to get to the leader. Takes 2 laps at most to sort out at the end of the caution period.

When going bakc to green, we all drop the flags simultaneously on command from the tower, so all drivers know the race has restarted. For some series, we have started to go to single yellow on the finger lap (last lap before restart), so the tail of a large field knows that the leaders are getting the green next time by. No green flags after the FCY, apart from IMSA (sometimes, if we remember, I think...)


As for SC board over double yellows - both work, maybe the SC board is a little earler to handle, but we all have 2 yellow flags anyways!

[garybirch]

All I wish for is one standard that everyone uses, then as a flagge I won't get confused!

[Bezzers1986]

I just hope I don't see the chaos that we had at the british GTs at Rockingham. The safety car came out, didn't bother to catch the pack, stayed out for three laps and went in, didn't turn the lights of first either!

Every flag post still had a safety car board out for probably another 2 laps before we worked out what had happened!

[CombeMarshal]

Wooley and Rich, Yeah, America use Full course yellow, and it works very well, if not very slightly tricky to get the flags held correct!
My biggest worry at the moment, as seen at Brands for the A1gp, many events now have SC in Quali, trouble is no one wants to bunch up in quali, they want space, at the restart we had cars going green as there were still cars pottering around before post 8 as they were still unnder SC conditions, how there wasn't an incident i'll never know!
SO in my oppinion, in quali, when the SC pulls into the pits the whole course should go green, problem solved instantly!

[terence]

Has anyone heard of the details concerning the Safety Car incident at Spa last weekend,apparently it was taken out by a Lambo,a Ferrari then hit them both and rolled causing yet more cars to pile into it.

[CombeMarshal]

Originally Posted by garybirch

All I wish for is one standard that everyone uses, then as a flagge I won't get confused!

mmmm, my wish is 6ft tall, brunet and blind, but we can all wish!

[r.arthur]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Has anyone heard of the details concerning the Safety Car incident at Spa last weekend,apparently it was taken out by a Lambo,a Ferrari then hit them both and rolled causing yet more cars to pile into it.

didnt hear about that

[Chigley]

Originally Posted by Bezzers1986

I just hope I don't see the chaos that we had at the british GTs at Rockingham. The safety car came out, didn't bother to catch the pack, stayed out for three laps and went in, didn't turn the lights of first either!

Every flag post still had a safety car board out for probably another 2 laps before we worked out what had happened!

I have no wish to go off topic.

Hmmm? I'm not sure what Post you were on but from the gantry every time the Safety Car went out I saw yellows lights on its roof and I definately didn't go green until the SC lights went out. What could have thrown you was when the checker went out instead of a green after a SC period at the end of the second GT race.