New circuits for 2004

[Mr V]

Ok, i know that the thought of Herman Tilke designing a new circuit usually makes one "shudder" and say "not another Tilke-ring" but having seen the plans for the new circuits in this months F1Racing mag, i'm genuinely excited about the prospect of cars racing at Bahrain and China. There looks to be 3-4 overtaking oppertunities at each circuit and i especially like the tunnel at the start/finish straight of the Chinese race, wonder if it will effect aero of the cars?

Thoughts please?

BTW, i've added a poll to gauge everyones reaction....

[Mr V]

Sorry, the above is the Bahrain circuit.

Below is the China circuit.

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[Mr V]

And i especially like the "tunnel" covering the start/finish straight at China.


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[Smokey 6 litre]

the circuits look good, the only thing is you cant build history or chracter into a circuit.
I find the malasian circuit a bit boring to race on f12003.

where did thats 3rd image come from? i'd like to see the tracks like that if possible.

[ASCII Man]

Blue everywhere and f1 cars double in size?

Anyway, i find Bahrain to look like a decent track, not good but just decent.
China is just plain horrible...

[Gt_R]

People tend to brush of Tilke's circuits, but one thing undeniable is that he design impressive race facilities, not just the track.

And much as we hate his "mickey-mouse" designs, he put it down to the fact that current F1 restricts designs. Hence, there MUST be "a very long straight ending in a tight corner" to allow overtaking, and "a variety of high/slow speed corners of changing directions (preferably continuous)" to fully test the aero/handling of cars. And that's basically what you see from his latest work and Sepang.

Unfortunately, all his designs were based around the same idea, and the races are all held in very hot temperature. If all things goes as planned, then the package that is strong in Malaysia next week will probably do well in Bahrain and China too.

[ASCII Man]

Good news for the vast majority of F1 fans and teams then!

[golem]

I won't vote until I see them, but correct me if I'm wrong, they're both on flat land? What can REALLY makes a track spectacular and driver challanging is gradient change. Spa and Nurburgring, Bathurst come readily to mind.

[Knowlesy]

Bahrain looks life threateningly dull, although it could provide some good action.

Shanghai has similarlya boring track layout, but that amazing tunnel structure.....wow! When they showed it on the ITV preview show I was staggered at the sheer impact of the thing!

[pirenzo]

There are rules set out by the FIA for new tracks that specify a maximum gradient change. Which sucks. I think corners like Paddock Hill bend and Eau Rouge don't meet these requirements. I really don't understand it and it's as boring as hell.
It irritates me that all thats happening in the track building world is that countries are funding huge F1 tracks, but not trying to increase the number of smaller grass roots tracks, and i can see a time where there will only be one track in most countries, and motorracing will basically kill itself from bottom up.

[pirenzo]

here are a few lines from Appendix O of the international sporting code

In curves, the banking (downwards from the outside to the
inside of the track) should not exceed 10% (with possible
exceptions in special cases, such as speedways). An adverse
incline is not generally acceptable unless dictated by special
circumstances, in which case the entry speed should not
exceed 125kph.

means no adverse camber turns with approach speeds more than about 80mph

A curve, or series of curves uninterrupted by a straight, taken
at a speed in excess of 125kph, should preferably have an increasing, or at least a constant radius. Curves taken at
lower speeds may have a decreasing radius on condition that
it is foreseen to provide an adequate safety area, extending
beyond the exit of the curve(s).

No tightening corners, (where's the challenge?)

It is recommended that the length
of any new circuit should not exceed 7km.

A run-off area is that section of ground between the verge
the fi rst line of protection and unless otherwise specifi ed should
have the same basic characteristics as the verge, although
may be less stabilised. The run-off area should be graded
to the verge; if it has a slope, this should not exceed 25%
upwards, with a smooth transition from track to run-off area,
3% downwards, in relation to the lateral projection of the track
surface. This paragraph does not apply to gravel beds.

Makes building adequate run-off in hilly terrain difficult

The gradient of the start/fi nish straight should not exceed 2%.

Oh well, there's why we can't have the old Osterreichring back

[freud]

Both are mickey mouse circuits... though better than other **** circuits like hungary and barcelona.

[golem]

Well, THANKS FOR NOTHING you useless bunch of safety demented fun spoiling shirt and button, gutless, witless, boring, yellow backed, badger licking suited numpties called the FIA.

Your recommendations on track design basically read as: Reduce challange, reduce fun, reduce entertainment, reduce relation to real roads, reduce adrenaline.
Increase safety.

Thanks. Thanks a (insert own 4 letters of choice)ing lot. Ever figured a great deal of every driver who ever decided to fang a car about a road circuit or rally course did it because of the risk?! Why the hell do you think racers, not guys in suits, decided to pick Nurburgring as a track? Why did it become so damn popular amongst the people who give a damn!?

Unreal.

[1200Datto27]

Golem,

Why don't you tell us what you really think ;-)

[freud]

I say Golem has a point here. Except for Monaco, Belgium, Suzuka and Monza, all f1 tracks are either 'Mickey mouse' or 'Near-mickey mouse'. They tried to destroy the swimming pool section and the exit of the monaco tunnel a few years ago.. luckily the king of monaco intervened and said no BS in my territory.

Bahrain the straights look good and there might be overtaking at the end of these though the chicane **** me off. And Zhuhai is just a jungle of chicanes. I mean what the heck Max mosely wants? he wants to convert f1 into karts or what??

[golem]

I just don't get it? I mean, the whole reason the some tracks exist is because drivers went looking for a challenge. And not just a challenge from the other guys alongside them, they go looking for a piece of tarmac itself that offers them a challenge.

Lots of them do it. Some die. And still the drivers come. Some whinge because they think it's too dangerous but personally, I think that's an admission that track has beaten you and when it gets sanitized, the joy of trying that challenge is stripped from everyone else.
If you think we're Lemmings then by whatever god let us lemmings die because we enjoy trying to kill ourselves. You want a sport where no one is ever going to get seriously hurt then what are you doing in motorsport?
Don't think I'm a chest thumper 'real-man' either. That's not what this is about. Half the tracks in the world would scare me to death. I don't have the skill to push on a mountain pass. Extra safety is great and believe me, I appreciate it.

I like good (emphasis on good) ABS on road cars, you can always pull them off when you make a track car if you want. No problem. Roll cages rock. HANS is a good idea. Making sure the cars won't break at provocation is a great thing. Wheel teathers, smart move! Fireproof undersuits are hot but very very welcome. Those energy absorbing foam backed layered barrier things at the Oval courses in america are damn clever. Bring them all on I say.

But note, none of them remove anything from the challenge bar maybe ABS. They help when someone has been beaten by the challenge at hand.

[f1atic]

Baharain should provide some exciting racing. China, well, I don't know about exciting racing there. I'll have to wait and see. As for the tunnel, what is the purpose? In Monaco, it is there because that is where the road went, but to build an artificial tunnel - we can't see what is happening - just to have a tunnel????????? F1 tracks are not ammusement park rides - come on.

[Hazza]

Dumb question: The reason they don't design high speed tracks, with height variation (ala: Monza) is because it would be useless every other day of the year right?

[Gt_R]

I actually thought that the current track designs are made compact and around a small confine to "improve" the show for spectators... that they can see "more" of the action and most of the circuit. Well, at least that's the reason they altered Hockenheim...the stadium audience can't see anything but 10% of the circuit.

And it's that restriction that cause current tracks to be very twisty and slow...

[twig]

I think Tilke has done the best job he can do with certain restrictions.

People say the things don't have character and tradition....but...exactly how do you make a new circuit have that.

People compare it to the Nordschliefe, as though they really want Tilke to design a track like that in the space required.

I am a supporter of the Shanghai circuit, i can remember it a lot more than the Bahrain one, although, having looked at it, i am not so sure about the middle bit of the Chinese circuit. The run onto the back straight looks fantastic though.

[twig]

Originally posted by freud
And Zhuhai is just a jungle of chicanes.

I cant see any chicanes

[f1atic]

Originally posted by Hazza
Dumb question: The reason they don't design high speed tracks, with height variation (ala: Monza) is because it would be useless every other day of the year right?

Well perhaps, but an awfully lot of motorcycle races take place on tracks with elevation changes as a part of them. I don't think that is the answer.

[ASCII Man]

Zhuhai is littered with primarily stop/go corners which demand little to zero driver skill.
If it's slower than 70 mp/h, then it's either a chicane or a hairpin in my book.

[pirenzo]

it's not Zhuhai!
Shanghai!

Zhuhai is another circuit altogether!

[ASCII Man]

Whatever, Zhuhai, Shanghai, Banzai, they're all the same.