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Old 20 Apr 2013, 18:31 (Ref:3237095)   #1376
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Originally Posted by The Badger View Post
2nd last GP , when he overtook Webber to take the win .

Team orders , are in effect race rigging . How do you legaly justify that then ? Why is it illegal in horse racing , and legal in motorsports ?

Just in my opinion ..... I completely disagree with team orders , it is supposed to be racing after all , or have I missed something . I realize why its done , but don't agree with it at all .
Oops, I missed the 'l' on the end of the word! Thought it said 'Vette',and that didn't make much sense!! (Needless to say, I don't really follow F1)
Definitely agree on this. Thankfully, it hasn't been much of an issue in ALMS GTE or the Audi/Toyota battle.
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Old 23 Apr 2013, 08:26 (Ref:3238274)   #1377
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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107007
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Old 23 Apr 2013, 08:30 (Ref:3238276)   #1378
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An interesting statement but I do think porsche was always more related to sportscars than the F! go carts
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Old 23 Apr 2013, 08:34 (Ref:3238281)   #1379
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Pity Ferrari wouldn't return to sportscars in the top class !!!
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Old 23 Apr 2013, 08:48 (Ref:3238285)   #1380
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They have to much invested in F1 and can not afford to do anything else
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Old 23 Apr 2013, 09:09 (Ref:3238291)   #1381
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They have to much invested in F1 and can not afford to do anything else
I dont think it is the money as Ferrari is probably the one team in the world that could attract enough sponsors to fund a programme.

I would think that FIAT group are more likely to return with Maserati or Alfa but those brands need to get more profitable and more successful first.
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Old 23 Apr 2013, 09:14 (Ref:3238294)   #1382
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Ferrari can attract large sponsers yes but they have limited resources and would not go into something unless they have a clear objective they are better suited to gt's at the moment and i can't see that changing for a few years
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Old 23 Apr 2013, 11:16 (Ref:3238341)   #1383
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Ferrari can attract large sponsers yes but they have limited resources and would not go into something unless they have a clear objective they are better suited to gt's at the moment and i can't see that changing for a few years
The Ferrari car manufactoring was built to generate money for their F1 endevors.. But ferrari has grown a lot since then, and can now easily fund both F1 by itself, but it doesn't need to as most of the checks are payed by the sponsors, and tv rights...

The problem IMO is that they don't have enough manpower to run both F1, and Le Mans.. Even their GTE department, is mostly run by Michelotto...
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Old 23 Apr 2013, 11:59 (Ref:3238365)   #1384
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I would like so much to see Ferrari in LMP1 in Le Mans and WEC! But I think resources to manage both programs (P1 and F1) are too much for Ferrari. Racing in P1 and F1 with the aim to win the title requires a lot of resources, and the risk to fail in at least one of the programs is too high. Ferrari (or Porsche, or any other manufacturer) would never race knowing to have low chances of final win!
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Old 23 Apr 2013, 12:12 (Ref:3238370)   #1385
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The Ferrari car manufactoring was built to generate money for their F1 endevors.. But ferrari has grown a lot since then, and can now easily fund both F1 by itself, but it doesn't need to as most of the checks are payed by the sponsors, and tv rights...

The problem IMO is that they don't have enough manpower to run both F1, and Le Mans.. Even their GTE department, is mostly run by Michelotto...
I think you over estimate the profit generated by ferrari, they sell a very limited number of cars each year and generate very little profit from that side of the business.
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Old 23 Apr 2013, 12:21 (Ref:3238375)   #1386
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I think you over estimate the profit generated by ferrari, they sell a very limited number of cars each year and generate very little profit from that side of the business.
I agree. I don't think they may manage two so expensive racing programs!
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Old 23 Apr 2013, 12:29 (Ref:3238381)   #1387
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They sell a lot of overpriced keyrings and hats etc., according to some BBC car show.
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Old 23 Apr 2013, 12:36 (Ref:3238383)   #1388
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The problem IMO is that they don't have enough manpower to run both F1, and Le Mans.. Even their GTE department, is mostly run by Michelotto...
It all depends from the results you want achieve.
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Old 23 Apr 2013, 12:57 (Ref:3238392)   #1389
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They sell a lot of overpriced keyrings and hats etc., according to some BBC car show.
yes they do but it will still not generate the sort of funds needed to run an F1 team
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Old 23 Apr 2013, 13:49 (Ref:3238421)   #1390
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I agree. I don't think they may manage two so expensive racing programs!
reading some previous post, I see that there is some porsche expert, but please don't talk about ferrari if you don't know what to say... ferrari budget issues? ahahaha Ferrari sales volume of 2012 fiscal year was 2.4 billions€, for each f1 season ferrari could spend easily more than
the double of audi and toyota combined budget. In 2010 and 2011 they spent 400ml€ +/- mandatory cap 44ml€ for car parts - 60ml$ from santander. Last year budget was reduced to 300ml€ (+/- 44ml€ - 60ml$) because of staff cut per team during a GP. Ferrari doesn't enter in lmp1 because of money, it doesn't enter because since '50 is already deeply involved in the championship with the highest and most popoular TV and media coverage. I don't like F1 and i would like to see more manufacturers in wec, but can't deny that take part in the f1 championship with a competitive team is perfect for an automotive manufacturer. If a manufacturer already runs in f1, enter as lmp1 manufacturer in WEC would be simply pointless. Last ferrari lmp/imsa/wsc was the "american dream" f333sp, a car produced mainly by dallara with ferrari as engine supplier. The car was made because in the '90 the main class was still sustainable for small private teams and a customer program for a manufacturer was worthwhile, can you image the same now? impossible in lmp1 and no profit in lmp2. If fiat and marchionne plan to give international motorsport visibility to one of their brands, then could be used strategicly WEC starting a program with a dallara lmp1 car branded as lancia or alfa romeo with an hybrid multi-air engine. But trust this will never happen, too much riskfull for consolidated markets like the alfa and lancia and also because italian motorsport culture is mere ignorance, just limited to ferrari f1 and valentino rossi.
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Old 23 Apr 2013, 14:11 (Ref:3238436)   #1391
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If Ferrari sell about 5,000 cars a year that means that they have an average price of Euro 480,000.
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Old 23 Apr 2013, 14:34 (Ref:3238444)   #1392
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reading some previous post, I see that there is some porsche expert, but please don't talk about ferrari if you don't know what to say... ferrari budget issues? ahahaha Ferrari sales volume of 2012 fiscal year was 2.4 billions€, for each f1 season ferrari could spend easily more than
the double of audi and toyota combined budget. In 2010 and 2011 they spent 400ml€ +/- mandatory cap 44ml€ for car parts - 60ml$ from santander. Last year budget was reduced to 300ml€ (+/- 44ml€ - 60ml$) because of staff cut per team during a GP. Ferrari doesn't enter in lmp1 because of money, it doesn't enter because since '50 is already deeply involved in the championship with the highest and most popoular TV and media coverage. I don't like F1 and i would like to see more manufacturers in wec, but can't deny that take part in the f1 championship with a competitive team is perfect for an automotive manufacturer. If a manufacturer already runs in f1, enter as lmp1 manufacturer in WEC would be simply pointless. Last ferrari lmp/imsa/wsc was the "american dream" f333sp, a car produced mainly by dallara with ferrari as engine supplier. The car was made because in the '90 the main class was still sustainable for small private teams and a customer program for a manufacturer was worthwhile, can you image the same now? impossible in lmp1 and no profit in lmp2. If fiat and marchionne plan to give international motorsport visibility to one of their brands, then could be used strategicly WEC starting a program with a dallara lmp1 car branded as lancia or alfa romeo with an hybrid multi-air engine. But trust this will never happen, too much riskfull for consolidated markets like the alfa and lancia and also because italian motorsport culture is mere ignorance, just limited to ferrari f1 and valentino rossi.
Sorry, but I don't talk about things I don't know... Eh eh eh.
Ferrari invests a lot of resources in F1 to be a top team. To make the same in LMP1, they would invest a lot of capitals, as well as a lot in human resources. To have a winning racing program in LMP1 you must have not only moneys, but right people in the right place. Ferrari is F1 focused, but has not the experience to face Audi in P1, and challenge german manufacturer should cost a lot of resources to the italian brand, and not only from the economic point of view.
Then if we only talk about economic resources, Porsche has larger capital to invest in races, more than Ferrari. Audi has larger economic capitals than Ferrari, too, because they sell a lot of cars more than the italian manufacturer. But this is not guarantee to be at the top of any racing program they may decide to take place.
About the F333SP, don't forgive it raced in USA against not so strong opponents (Cadillac, Riley&Scott, etc.). In Europe, where it found some hard opponents, Ferrari didn't win the same as in USA.
When I talk about resources, I don't necessarily I mean economic capitals, but all the other resources necessaries to face a winning top program.
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Old 23 Apr 2013, 15:33 (Ref:3238455)   #1393
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First, I told you why, in my realistic opinion, ferrari has not any interest to run in lmp1 (while audi/VWgroup would like to run in f1, but is unable to do it for various reasons, otherwise can't be explained the fox and grapes attitude when f1 argument is debated). Second, if you think that ferrari can not to deal with an expensive investment beyond f1 you're wrong. You should not see Ferrari spa as a single brand, but as a part of a big holding, as porsche and audi are part of VW group. An eventual very important motorsport program beyond F1 would be heavily supported by fiat, ferrari won't have any issues if we speak about finances. If you look beyond scuderia ferrari (the team and engineering section of ferrari spa that works on the f1 progam) there is also ferrari corse clienti section that developes GTE and GT3 cars, organizes international motorsport events like ferrari challenge, fxx and 599xx programme. In my opinion none other manufacturer in the world has a better sport division than Ferrari, so i have no doubts that if in an unrealistic future they will going to join lmp1 WEC, they will do it in a very competitive way, keeping on running competitively in F1 as well.
You're wrong twice if you talk about f333sp, 56 win in 144 race are not a coincidence, you forgot also that the car has been used only by private teams and ran in europe during manufacturers GT/GTP era! not the best period for a wsc spec born car. Not to mention the class win at le mans in 1998 and the other overall wins of daytona and sebring. Not so bad for an old car introduced just for a customer program. If we talk about F40LM, objectively the car has never been competitive, but before to talk about f333sp you should take your hat off.

In the end, a short article about the successfull 2012 ferrari fiscal year
http://www.mycarforum.com/blog/myautoblog/2799/2012-was-the-best-ever-financial-year-for-ferrari/
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Old 23 Apr 2013, 15:50 (Ref:3238464)   #1394
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A very rose tinted view of Ferrari there, with again some numbers that do not stand up to analyst even at 7,600 cars the average price is still well above the actual prices charged and without looking at the real accounts one suspects that there has been a little magic worked on the numbers by creative accountants, massive amounts on the balance sheet for intangible assets like R & D. Fiat on the other hand has more well known financial problems just like Italy and has no appetite for motor racing expense other than a little advertising.
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Old 23 Apr 2013, 16:18 (Ref:3238475)   #1395
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"The aero, too, is incredible, but so extreme that it cannot result in any development in our road car understanding."
So, almost F1-incredible aero + fenders, suddenly so much more relevant to road cars? Riiiiight.

In principle I should like this statement, but it's just the sort of corporate BS that I have started to really despise. Short translation of that article: "LMP1 fits our marketing needs more than F1."

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Old 23 Apr 2013, 16:39 (Ref:3238480)   #1396
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So Porsche explains to the world why Le Mans is more logical for them than F1.

In other news, David Beckham tells the press why he signed for PSG instead of switching to rugby.
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Old 23 Apr 2013, 16:39 (Ref:3238482)   #1397
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So Porsche explains to the world why Le Mans is more logical for them than F1.

In other news, David Beckham tells the press why he signed for PSG instead of switching to rugby.
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Old 23 Apr 2013, 16:51 (Ref:3238488)   #1398
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First, I told you why, in my realistic opinion, ferrari has not any interest to run in lmp1 (while audi/VWgroup would like to run in f1, but is unable to do it for various reasons, otherwise can't be explained the fox and grapes attitude when f1 argument is debated). Second, if you think that ferrari can not to deal with an expensive investment beyond f1 you're wrong. You should not see Ferrari spa as a single brand, but as a part of a big holding, as porsche and audi are part of VW group. An eventual very important motorsport program beyond F1 would be heavily supported by fiat, ferrari won't have any issues if we speak about finances. If you look beyond scuderia ferrari (the team and engineering section of ferrari spa that works on the f1 progam) there is also ferrari corse clienti section that developes GTE and GT3 cars, organizes international motorsport events like ferrari challenge, fxx and 599xx programme. In my opinion none other manufacturer in the world has a better sport division than Ferrari, so i have no doubts that if in an unrealistic future they will going to join lmp1 WEC, they will do it in a very competitive way, keeping on running competitively in F1 as well.
You're wrong twice if you talk about f333sp, 56 win in 144 race are not a coincidence, you forgot also that the car has been used only by private teams and ran in europe during manufacturers GT/GTP era! not the best period for a wsc spec born car. Not to mention the class win at le mans in 1998 and the other overall wins of daytona and sebring. Not so bad for an old car introduced just for a customer program. If we talk about F40LM, objectively the car has never been competitive, but before to talk about f333sp you should take your hat off.

In the end, a short article about the successfull 2012 ferrari fiscal year
http://www.mycarforum.com/blog/myautoblog/2799/2012-was-the-best-ever-financial-year-for-ferrari/
No, sorry. Porsche has never been really attracted by Formula 1, so I would like to understand why it should decide to run in F1 instead of Le Mans, where it has written its history...
Mmmh... Ferrari withdrawn from Le Mans after it was defeated by Ford, Porsche and Matra. I can say the same. Ferrari doesn't come to Le Mans because it's not capable to win there.
My cousin says if you win in Formula 1, you can win everywhere.
Ooops! My cousin's 12 years old!
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Old 23 Apr 2013, 16:51 (Ref:3238489)   #1399
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agree, lmp1 use so advanced technologies for aero and mechanical gears with some f1 ispired solution too like 2013 r18 that simply can't be applied in road cars. Just like audi used to do, porsche statement is another fox and grapes virtuosism. I read this: we have enough technical know how and money to jump in f1 but we are scared to throw away money for years as toyota did in almost 10 years.
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Old 23 Apr 2013, 16:52 (Ref:3238490)   #1400
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So Porsche explains to the world why Le Mans is more logical for them than F1.

In other news, David Beckham tells the press why he signed for PSG instead of switching to rugby.
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