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Old 7 Mar 2008, 15:42 (Ref:2146389)   #201
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Originally Posted by davyboy
...and few would disagree that he would probably have won the 2007 WDC if he'd still been driving.
That's just an opinion.

Statistically he didn't win the title in 2007
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Old 7 Mar 2008, 15:50 (Ref:2146394)   #202
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Originally Posted by Super Hans
That's just an opinion.

Statistically he didn't win the title in 2007
You're absolutely right. I think I'm going to start compiling statistics of opinions soon...
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Old 7 Mar 2008, 16:00 (Ref:2146399)   #203
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Originally Posted by davyboy
On the other side you could buy a GP car and show up to race... which is what many did. So, there was almost no selectivity to get to F1, the talent pool to draw from was small, so statistically [people will be calling me Mr. Statistics soon ] it was easier to succeed in comparison to today.
See, this is where I disagree, as I think it means that if you had the talent to get to F1, you did, as the opportunity was there. Albeit there were a load of others who got there and were sort of glacial (Ottorino Volonterio RIP). And that talent would be more obvious in lower formulae. So at the very top end we had a load of drivers who were very very meritorious.

It is perhaps no coincidence that so many drivers from the 50s and 60s in particular, when IMO it WAS easier to get to F1 through your talent, are considered world-class, compared to today. Someone like Jarno Trulli is probably around the 10th best in the world* today; in 1965 the top ten would have had Clark, Hill G, Stewart, Gurney, Brabham, Hulme, Spence, Surtees, Bandini and Rindt. Without even mentioning Hill P, Rodriguez, McLaren and many others. And also think of those who had been killed or grievously injured in recent years that would not have been in today's conditions - the would-be-Coulthards of 1965 would have included Musso, Collins, Allison and a certain S C Moss. It's no comparison at all.

Then again I'd put a Vettel or Bourdais ahead of a Bernard Collomb or Kurt Kuhnke.

And as for forging a team and working together with the same dedicated personnel around you...how do we rank someone who won titles in 4 consecutive years changing his team every time?

*not including NASCAR or similar things
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Old 7 Mar 2008, 16:37 (Ref:2146408)   #204
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Originally Posted by ensign14

And as for forging a team and working together with the same dedicated personnel around you...how do we rank someone who won titles in 4 consecutive years changing his team every time?

*not including NASCAR or similar things
How does 'Number One' sound.
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Old 7 Mar 2008, 16:46 (Ref:2146411)   #205
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Originally Posted by ensign14
Someone like Jarno Trulli is probably around the 10th best in the world today; in 1965 the top ten would have had Clark, Hill G, Stewart, Gurney, Brabham, Hulme, Spence, Surtees, Bandini and Rindt. Without even mentioning Hill P, Rodriguez, McLaren and many others. And also think of those who had been killed or grievously injured in recent years that would not have been in today's conditions - the would-be-Coulthards of 1965 would have included Musso, Collins, Allison and a certain S C Moss. It's no comparison at all.
Jim Clark, Graham Hill, Jackie Stewart, Dan Gurney, Jack Brabham, Denny Hulme, John Surtees, Lorenzo Bandini, Jochen Rindt are all legends but we'll never know how any of them would measure up against Coulthard or Trulli in equal equipment. Its the age-old question. All we can do is surmise and debate... then look at the stats and conclude from there

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Originally Posted by ensign14
And as for forging a team and working together with the same dedicated personnel around you...how do we rank someone who won titles in 4 consecutive years changing his team every time?
Obviously pretty highly, but it very much depends on the competition he had at the time.
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Old 7 Mar 2008, 17:29 (Ref:2146428)   #206
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Originally Posted by davyboy
Jim Clark, Graham Hill, Jackie Stewart, Dan Gurney, Jack Brabham, Denny Hulme, John Surtees, Lorenzo Bandini, Jochen Rindt are all legends but we'll never know how any of them would measure up against Coulthard or Trulli in equal equipment.
Given Coulthard thinks driving in the wet without traction control is a bit too tricky, I think I know where my money would go.

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Originally Posted by davyboy
Obviously pretty highly, but it very much depends on the competition he had at the time.
Ascari, Farina, Gonzalez, Behra, Hawthorn, Collins, Musso, Castellotti, Villoresi, Taruffi, Trintignant, Moss, Brooks and Brabham over those six or seven years...not forgetting others who never had the chance to show their potential, like Marimon, Beauman, Mackay Fraser...
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Old 8 Mar 2008, 13:57 (Ref:2146909)   #207
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Two of the more successful here... Fangio and Farina started their F1 careers aged 40 and 46 respectively. Many of the others above started in their late twenties or thirties. The cars were very physical to drive back then, I appreciate in a different way to today, but they were not akin sitting in front of a Playstation. The deduction is either that these people were superhuman in comparison to today's gentile, or that the overall level of competition was different.

Sacrilegious as it may be, the fact that all motorsport back then was a rich man's pastime and was accessible to just a small number of people in a small number of countries* has to have played a part. If you wind the clock back 20/30 years before 1950, motorsport was even more aristocratic and less accessible... few people even had road cars... so you'd have to say competition was even weaker then.

So, its likely that the level of competition today is higher than its ever been and the triumphs of Hakkinen, Schumacher, Alonso and Raikkonen among the most meritorius of all.

*Let's not forget the world was recovering after WW2 and many parts of the world including Japan and Germany [the world's second and third largest economies today] were just a step above poverty in 1950.
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Old 8 Mar 2008, 18:22 (Ref:2146990)   #208
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Taprobane should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
If Schumacher is so great why did he wuss out of going head to head with Raikkonen?

He is undoubtedly a very good driver, but his behaviour on track and fear of taking on a top class team mate mean as far as i'm concerned that stops him from being right at the top of my list.
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Old 8 Mar 2008, 18:54 (Ref:2147006)   #209
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Originally Posted by Taprobane
If Schumacher is so great why did he wuss out of going head to head with Raikkonen?

He is undoubtedly a very good driver, but his behaviour on track and fear of taking on a top class team mate mean as far as i'm concerned that stops him from being right at the top of my list.
There's no evidence whatsoever that he 'wussed out' of going head to head with Raikkonen. There's been a lot of press to that effect though, particularly in the UK. Had he gone head to head with Raikkonen, and had he floored him in 2007, a very likely scenario seeing as he had a lot more experience on the Bridgestones... Ferrari's great hope for the future would have looked decidedly second rate and Ferrari themselves would have been faced with an embarassing bit of PR to deal with.

Schumacher's been berated for some things he did on track and quite rightly so. But they pale when compared to his achievements, something people don't seem to want to accept. Senna was no angel either. He deliberately took Prost out in a dangerous manouvre so that he could secure a WDC, yet its very rare you hear people say that incident overrides everything else about his career.

Also, I don't buy it that he was fearful of taking on a top class team mate. In his first season he was partnered with triple world champion Nelson Piquet, who won the Canadian GP that year, and Schumacher gave him a run for his money. The likelihood is that almost anybody in the same team as Schumacher would have had trouble keeping pace with him. Martin Brundle went on record as saying that he believed if Ayrton Senna was in the same team as Schumacher, Schumacher would be quicker. I think you need to look at why Schumacher would prefer somebody significantly weaker than him in the second seat :
o He felt that most teams could not run two drivers at top level.
o Better for you to have it clear that a driver is a number 2 and plays a support role rather than go against you.
o A one-two is the best the team can hope for. There can't be two winners, but there can be two loosers.
Schumacher was clever enough to ensure he went somewhere that he could stack the odds on his side [why he probably never considered Williams or McLaren]... and that made delivering the goods easier.

Last edited by davyboy; 8 Mar 2008 at 18:57.
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Old 8 Mar 2008, 20:30 (Ref:2147044)   #210
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Red Bulldog should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Good post davyboy
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Old 8 Mar 2008, 20:42 (Ref:2147051)   #211
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Originally Posted by davyboy
Also, I don't buy it that he was fearful of taking on a top class team mate. In his first season he was partnered with triple world champion Nelson Piquet, who won the Canadian GP that year, and Schumacher gave him a run for his money.
Piquet said several times that since from the first time he had TGF as team mate, he knew the kid was champion material, and struggled to keep competitive with him, and later remarked that TGF would beat any one with same equipment... comments towards Ruben's fans at the time
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Old 8 Mar 2008, 21:10 (Ref:2147064)   #212
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Originally Posted by davyboy
Sacrilegious as it may be, the fact that all motorsport back then was a rich man's pastime and was accessible to just a small number of people in a small number of countries* has to have played a part.
It wasn't though! You had drivers coming up to F1 throughout the 50s, 60s and 70s with barely a penny to their names. The Germans post-war were allowed to compete from 1949, they hardly missed a beat. The Japanese drivers are still not at the top level today. But they were made up for by the fact that there were more Italian drivers then than now.

The point is back then if you had money you got to F1 if you wanted. But you got to F1 if you had talent. Can you name 10 drivers from the 50s or 60s who were good enough to get to F1 but never had a WC race? (Not including the separate track Americans?) All I can think of OTTOMH are Don Parker (who was in his 40s), Jim Russell and maybe Jean Guichet and the Marzottos. Yet in the last 10 years or so you've had Robbie Kerr, Marc Hynes, Jorg Muller, Jordi Gene, Kenny Brack, Nic Minassian, Bjorn Wirdheim, Bruno Junqueira, Jamie Davies, Gary Paffett, Jonny Kane and probably loads of others who never made it to the top yet had far more talent than the Baumgartners or Sakamotos of this world.
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Old 9 Mar 2008, 00:44 (Ref:2147203)   #213
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Had JV retired at the end of 1997 he would have been higher on the list.

However, he did not and destroyed what reputation he had and more.
Not sure - he had a decent 2000 season, scoring BAR's first points and generally outclassing Zonta. He drove well in his last year as well, unfortunate that 03 and 05 ruined his reputation..

On '97 alone I feel JV deserves to be in there, quite an achievement beating a full strength Schumacher that year.
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Old 9 Mar 2008, 01:59 (Ref:2147220)   #214
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At least JV has his NASCAR career ................................. OH

(does this mean the ban is lifted?)
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Old 9 Mar 2008, 22:27 (Ref:2147825)   #215
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Originally Posted by ensign14
It wasn't though! You had drivers coming up to F1 throughout the 50s, 60s and 70s with barely a penny to their names. The Germans post-war were allowed to compete from 1949, they hardly missed a beat. The Japanese drivers are still not at the top level today. But they were made up for by the fact that there were more Italian drivers then than now.

The point is back then if you had money you got to F1 if you wanted. But you got to F1 if you had talent. Can you name 10 drivers from the 50s or 60s who were good enough to get to F1 but never had a WC race? (Not including the separate track Americans?) All I can think of OTTOMH are Don Parker (who was in his 40s), Jim Russell and maybe Jean Guichet and the Marzottos. Yet in the last 10 years or so you've had Robbie Kerr, Marc Hynes, Jorg Muller, Jordi Gene, Kenny Brack, Nic Minassian, Bjorn Wirdheim, Bruno Junqueira, Jamie Davies, Gary Paffett, Jonny Kane and probably loads of others who never made it to the top yet had far more talent than the Baumgartners or Sakamotos of this world.
I guess we'll have to agree to differ on this one.
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