[BTCC] BTCC 2019 - Brands Hatch Indy - Rounds 1, 2, 3

[RED55]

I agree with Mikes view on non contact , however these cars are nothing like the older generation of saloon cars in terms of being able to place the car perfectly by vision, the current NGTC cars are terrible to see out of , its easier when there are no other cars in proximety as the drivers are using reference points around the circuit to brake and turn ,when another car blocks it ,its just faith that gets them around , most of the time they are guessing where the apex is , because they cant actually see it ! i used to have the same view , years ago I could see out of my cosworth ,exactly where to place it , after trying an NGTC car admitedly an old one i just couldnt drive it fast , I wasnt comfortable , I couldnt see out ! so now I take the view contact will happen as really the drivers are positioning blind ,so hats off to all of them really for just being able to stay on the track , a good example is Tingram , that Corolla is on top of him , how he sees over the steering wheel to start with is a special gift in itself ,bring in spray and rain then I certainly cant admire enough the nerve all of them have to go race door to door .drive a van , then drive a car not actually sat on the seat !, you will see what I mean

[RS67]

Originally Posted by Johno.UK

I suppose one thing it does show is how inappropriate Platos punishment was. Start a couple of inches out of position in race 1 and you lose the whole day.

Seriously? You think a pit lane drive through is enough to ruin the rest of the day.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

Team error as well, Motorbase should have told TC to give the place back, the team has the advantage of the TV coverage to see the 'incident' from the outside and advise the driver if it is or maybe outside the rules.

From the TV coverage being from behind it wasn't even clear that Chilton had tapped Neal from the rear. The contact after was legal as Chilton was already past the B Pillar.

[Johno.UK]

Originally Posted by RS67

Seriously? You think a pit lane drive through is enough to ruin the rest of the day.

In race 1 yes it is. Race 2 is based on the finishing positions of race 1 so a drive through on a track with a 50 second lap puts you last which means you're going to start race 2 near the back.

If you're lucky you might get high enough to benefit from a reverse grid draw for race 3.

It's very unlikely you're going to get the same points haul from all three races as you would starting from P2 in race 1 without penalties which is why I say it ruins the day. It's not just a penalty for one race it's basically a penalty for at least 2 races and, without a bit of luck, all 3. Way out of proportion when you consider you can punt someone out of the way, get a 5 second penalty and still be on the podium.

Add in how many other cars there were out of position in all three races that weren't punished and, for once, I think JP is perfectly justified to have a good moan.

[Mike Harte]

Don't overlook the fact that after Plato had completed his drive through, he also returned to the pits to change over to slick tyres having started on the wets.

This put him further out of sequence.

[Johno.UK]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Don't overlook the fact that after Plato had completed his drive through, he also returned to the pits to change over to slick tyres having started on the wets.

This put him further out of sequence.

It would still have made little difference. The days of driving from the back to the front (without massive tyre advantages) are long gone. Leaving aside vagaries of weather etc any driver starting on the front two rows who gets a drive through in race one is going to end up finishing lower in all three races 99 times out of 100 than they would without the drive through.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Johno.UK

It would still have made little difference. The days of driving from the back to the front (without massive tyre advantages) are long gone. Leaving aside vagaries of weather etc any driver starting on the front two rows who gets a drive through in race one is going to end up finishing lower in all three races 99 times out of 100 than they would without the drive through.

The simple answer is surely to avoid doing something dense that gets you a drive through in race 1 then isn't it?

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

The simple answer is surely to avoid doing something dense that gets you a drive through in race 1 then isn't it?

Stop being sensible; this is strictly forbidden on these pages!

One thing that I noticed that at the moment that the lights went out at the start, the pit wall was virtually deserted. It would seem that nearly all the team personnel scurry back to their garages to watch proceedings from their TV screens. Maybe if some one had been on the wall, they could have told/motioned for Plato to back up an inch or two.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Johno.UK

It's very unlikely you're going to get the same points haul from all three races as you would starting from P2 in race 1 without penalties which is why I say it ruins the day. It's not just a penalty for one race it's basically a penalty for at least 2 races and, without a bit of luck, all 3. Way out of proportion when you consider you can punt someone out of the way, get a 5 second penalty and still be on the podium.

There is a difference between 'punting' someone, and making contact that was not deliberate.

JP breached a regulation that is a 'matter of fact' case, and so punishment followed.
TC (in part) caused an accidental contact that he benefited from, and the guideline is to rectify that.

Deliberately punting someone off is a different case altogether. Note that TC did not received any strike under the current process, so is not guilty of breaching driving standards. The case you are making against TC's punishment is based on a much more serious, deliberate, act to the one TC made.

[mattt]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Stop being sensible; this is strictly forbidden on these pages!

One thing that I noticed that at the moment that the lights went out at the start, the pit wall was virtually deserted. It would seem that nearly all the team personnel scurry back to their garages to watch proceedings from their TV screens. Maybe if some one had been on the wall, they could have told/motioned for Plato to back up an inch or two.

The teams aren't allowed on the pit wall at the start of the race. Only marshals, judges, scrutineers etc. So the best place for them to see the start is in the garage

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[Johno.UK]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

The simple answer is surely to avoid doing something dense that gets you a drive through in race 1 then isn't it?

I agree but it would also be nice if they applied the rule to every car on the grid in each race as well wouldn't it?

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

There is a difference between 'punting' someone, and making contact that was not deliberate.

Hitting someone to get by is a punt in my book which is what TC did. You could say that every contact made ever is not deliberate.

[Lola]

Team personnel are not allowed on the pit wall at the start.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by Johno.UK

I agree but it would also be nice if they applied the rule to every car on the grid in each race as well wouldn't it?

Do they not?

Originally Posted by Johno.UK

You could say that every contact made ever is not deliberate.

Not been watching BTCC long? The "push to pass" or "Plato" as it's known is a common move in the BTCC - you can often predict which driver will hit the car ahead and at which corner.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by Johno.UK

Hitting someone to get by is a punt in my book which is what TC did. You could say that every contact made ever is not deliberate.

It wasn't a punt though, it was the smallest tap because Chilton had better grip. Had it been a punt Meals car would have gone a lot wider and you would have seen him trying to get the car under control.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by mattt

The teams aren't allowed on the pit wall at the start of the race. Only marshals, judges, scrutineers etc. So the best place for them to see the start is in the garage

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And

Originally Posted by Lola

Team personnel are not allowed on the pit wall at the start.

I am more than happy to be corrected, but having read through the Nov 2018 BTCC Regulations - twice - and a fairly quick look at the MSAUK Regulations, I cannot see any mention of team members not being allowed on the pit wall at the start of the race. I did see that only two team members were permitted, although others could join them for the end of the last lap.

[mattt]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

And





I am more than happy to be corrected, but having read through the Nov 2018 BTCC Regulations - twice - and a fairly quick look at the MSAUK Regulations, I cannot see any mention of team members not being allowed on the pit wall at the start of the race. I did see that only two team members were permitted, although others could join them for the end of the last lap.

It's a standard rule across all circuit racing in the UK. It's usually found written in the final instructions iirc.

The only exceptions that I'm aware of are at the BGP where members from F1, F2 and F3 are allowed to be on the wall.

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[mattt]

This is an example from another race meeting. I don't have the regs from the touring cars this weekend but it is something that is fairly generic across most race meetings

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[Redshift]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

Do they not?

I was at the circuit on Sunday so last night I watched race 2 on my recording of the ITV coverage.

Josh Cook's car appeared to be sufficiently far forward that it was nigh on impossible to see the white line at the front of the pit box.
The camera was positioned somewhere on the Hospitality Suite building and was in front of the start line so it should have been possible to see all of the front line.

On that basis he'd broken the same rule as Plato but he wasn't penalised so it appears that the rules aren't being applied uniformly.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Stop being sensible; this is strictly forbidden on these pages!

One thing that I noticed that at the moment that the lights went out at the start, the pit wall was virtually deserted. It would seem that nearly all the team personnel scurry back to their garages to watch proceedings from their TV screens. Maybe if some one had been on the wall, they could have told/motioned for Plato to back up an inch or two.

Except they would be breaking the rules.....
Methinks teams are not that dumb

[Greem]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I am more than happy to be corrected, but having read through the Nov 2018 BTCC Regulations - twice - and a fairly quick look at the MSAUK Regulations, I cannot see any mention of team members not being allowed on the pit wall at the start of the race. I did see that only two team members were permitted, although others could join them for the end of the last lap.

Originally Posted by Blue Book Q6.2.4.1

(v) all equipment and personnel must be in the pit garage when the relevant car is not making a pit stop, with the exception of pit signallers. Where there are no garages arrangements must be approved in advance with Motorsport UK.

Originally Posted by Blue Book Q13.1.5

(a) A maximum of one timekeeper and one person detailed by the entrant for the purpose of signalling may be on the pitwall/signalling area at any time unless the Supplementary Regulations stipulate otherwise.
(b) with the exception of (a) above, only the fire cover attendant specified in 13.1.2, the driver and two other persons may be on the course/in the pits in attendance on one car, unless the Supplementary Regulations or Championship Regulations state otherwise.

I'd argue that the race start rule stems from the first rule. It's certainly something that's enforced across all circuits and all meetings that I've ever been at, as a volunteer/official or spectator.

EDIT: mattt finds the supplementary reg ruling which does indeed stem from the Blue Book, as per the caveat in Q13.1.5 a & b.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Redshift

I was at the circuit on Sunday so last night I watched race 2 on my recording of the ITV coverage.

Josh Cook's car appeared to be sufficiently far forward that it was nigh on impossible to see the white line at the front of the pit box.
The camera was positioned somewhere on the Hospitality Suite building and was in front of the start line so it should have been possible to see all of the front line.

On that basis he'd broken the same rule as Plato but he wasn't penalised so it appears that the rules aren't being applied uniformly.

have a look again. it’s pretty simple to see.

the front of cooks car is ON the white line which is allowed. plato was AHEAD of the white line which is not allowed.

camera angles deceive. the judges are positioned at the side of the grid and so have the perfect view.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Redshift

I was at the circuit on Sunday so last night I watched race 2 on my recording of the ITV coverage.

Josh Cook's car appeared to be sufficiently far forward that it was nigh on impossible to see the white line at the front of the pit box.
The camera was positioned somewhere on the Hospitality Suite building and was in front of the start line so it should have been possible to see all of the front line.

On that basis he'd broken the same rule as Plato but he wasn't penalised so it appears that the rules aren't being applied uniformly.

have a look again. it’s pretty simple to see.

the front of cooks car is ON the white line which is allowed. plato was FORWARD of the white line which is not allowed.

camera angels can deceive. the start line judges are right at the side of the cars so have the best view.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Redshift

I was at the circuit on Sunday so last night I watched race 2 on my recording of the ITV coverage.

Josh Cook's car appeared to be sufficiently far forward that it was nigh on impossible to see the white line at the front of the pit box.
The camera was positioned somewhere on the Hospitality Suite building and was in front of the start line so it should have been possible to see all of the front line.

On that basis he'd broken the same rule as Plato but he wasn't penalised so it appears that the rules aren't being applied uniformly.

https://youtu.be/gOcmTTVo1k8 2:47, you can see Cook take his grid position short of the white line.

Compare with https://youtu.be/e7NbZSXMZq8 at 4:29.

[Alfisti]

Well in F1 there are sensors on the cars (and presumably the grid?) to determine if a car is out of place. I seem to recollect being told this by DC. Now given Google can track me to within inches via my mobile then surely TOCA can track cars relatively cheaply - and maybe even instruct the driver he's out of position? Or at the very least be able to vigorously and consistently dish out punishment.

The penalty killed Platos weekend. The tyre change was very much a "we're screwed so let's roll the dice". Nothing to lose as all was lost already. I'm not saying there shouldn't be penalties, but it was a harsh one. How much difference would a few inches have made? (Insert double entendre). Could a time penalty not be a sensible option? Or a directive from race control to surrender a position (or two or three)? In a sport like NASCAR where races are long and caution periods inevitable then race control does have options to manage the race, which may not be practical in a 20 odd minute "sprint".

Maybe JP will show up at the next meet with a dashcam so he can see where the cars nose is!

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Well in F1 there are sensors on the cars (and presumably the grid?) to determine if a car is out of place. I seem to recollect being told this by DC. Now given Google can track me to within inches via my mobile then surely TOCA can track cars relatively cheaply - and maybe even instruct the driver he's out of position? Or at the very least be able to vigorously and consistently dish out punishment.

The penalty killed Platos weekend. The tyre change was very much a "we're screwed so let's roll the dice". Nothing to lose as all was lost already. I'm not saying there shouldn't be penalties, but it was a harsh one. How much difference would a few inches have made? (Insert double entendre). Could a time penalty not be a sensible option? Or a directive from race control to surrender a position (or two or three)? In a sport like NASCAR where races are long and caution periods inevitable then race control does have options to manage the race, which may not be practical in a 20 odd minute "sprint".

Maybe JP will show up at the next meet with a dashcam so he can see where the cars nose is!

its a very simple regulation to understand and is something that all 29 other drivers managed to comply with in that same race! just dont put your car forward of the white line. how difficult is that? but he stuffed up and broke a regulation that is clearly spelled out in the rulebook. the regulation is clear. the penatly is clear and its the same for everyone. simples.