What about the fans?

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by old man

My point about GP racing is that we should take a look at how it has captured the audience it has, not to knock it Adam. The ALMS has done the best job so far in our field in recent years but even their best attended race is as much about the student's break as the racing.

Quite and GP racing has built up a following of non-fanatics. I suppose that is the key to popularity.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

We are missing a few lights and they "don't give a damn"! Crikey! They haven't done everything feasibly possible, but I think that is a long way from not giving a damn!

They have done ZERO, ZILCH.

An LMS race is not suitable for anyone other than a hardcore enthusiast.

I wouldn't dream of bringing firends who only have a passing interest, they'd be bored rigid after an hour.

Zero race information for fans, zero promotion, zero spectator entertainment infield, the series doesn't deserve spectator support.

It's about time people said enough is enough.

[Adam43]

Enough is enough! Crikey!

OK, what improvements would make the six hour race acceptable to those with only a passing interest? How much will that cost? How many more people will come to the track because of it? Do you know whether it is worth investiging in this? Will the investors get a return, will the extra punters cover the cost, or can you charge more on the ticket to cover the cost, or will enough Peugeots be shifted to cover the cost.

Unfortunately I fear that the investors in Europe don't think it is worth it. I am not sure I would put my money, or my companies money, into this. And someone has to pay for it.

[JAG]

-3 lights system

-Race radio, also broadcast over the internet

-2 large TV screens, one on the start finish area, one at the back end of the circuit.

-An LCD position tower

-Basic event promotion

-A celebrity car with a high profile local driver.

-Every major car club invited to put on a display, infield.

-Associated memorabilia stalls

-A basic fair or such like.


Who will pay for all this, well don't the ACO organise arguably the biggest motor race in the world?

Couldn't they use some of these screens and equipment at LMS events, is it going to bankrupt them to invest a little and bring this equipment to each round?

As for it being worthwile, just look at the spectator numbers at Oulton Park for a well promoted, British GT, Bank Hioliday meeting, packed to the rafters.

Then look at other less well promoted rounds, i.e. Donington and Silverstone, empty, drab and uninspiring.

FIA GT races at Silverstone from 96-98 attracted crowds in excess of 25k, thanks to a little help from the manufactuers involved, Doningtons FIA GT round in 2004 attracted 38k, thanks to a link up with John Guest.

Honestly, I don't know how the guys ruinning these series reached their position, is there no passion, do they not care about their series?

Are they simply happy to pick up a pay cheque and do the bare minimum.

The evidence is there for all to see, is it good enough.............we all know the answer to that. It's about time we, as fans, demanded a little more than to be hearded in and out like cattle.

Take inspiration from the ALMS, Super GT, DTM, Belcar, and British GT rounds like Oulton Park and Castle Combe.

[Adam43]

38,000 at Donington and what would those free tickets contribute to the income of the event to offset the expenditure?

I may be, and hope I am wrong, but I fear the lack of the above from your list is more a result of their experience and research that the level of expenditure required is unlikely to be worth it. It could well be that rather than apathy.

There is also a little bit of chicken and egg here I guess.

Call me Mr Negative!

[SebringMG]

Do you not think that even if 38k tickets are given away free then some of those people could be converted to liking the series and maybe in future they may pay for tickets ? Additionally from a sponsors point of view they have 38k people exposed to their wares....the stands look full and hence you can take the series across to potential sponsors and say look - 6 races with 30-40k people and a 24 hour race with 300k. That is exposure to in the region of 500k people!!!

Surely that is pretty damn impressive stats? Worth it for the promotrs etc as they take a cut of caterings sales etc.......

[brielga]

I've said just too much about this and every race still looks empty, JAG is right on but let me add just 2 more cents at the risk of being repetitive: Spanish GT fills Jarama, LMS hardly gets a couple of thousands. Check any picture from the 70s, say Spa or Monza 1000 kms, or Nuerburgring for gods sake. Tons less technology, grandstands and trackside packed, even in the pouring rain.Like my UK mates say : "nuff said"

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by SebringMG

That is exposure to in the region of 500k people!!!

and for what extra outlay? Is it worth it? And the consideration is about the extra people not the absolute number.

Surely that is pretty damn impressive stats? Worth it for the promotrs etc as they take a cut of caterings sales etc.......

All I am saying is that the reason we don't get all this stuff is maybe that the promoters think it isn't worth it! (???).

brielga point is interesting, was there more for the spectators back then?

[GTfour]

For instance I like the fairground at Le Mans because it makes for a good background in a picture! However I don't really have a desire to go to it and it just gets in the way as I walk to the Esses!


Hahahaa.I have to agree with you here! Allthough I had a great time the single time I went round in the giant wheel overlooking the track at night,I too wouldn't miss the entire fair if it weren't there,
But that's just my opinion. I can imagine others love it and it is part of Le Mans like the fireworks,Hawaian tropic girls,etc,etc.

However,you talk about the teams/organisers experience with the ways to promote their events an their knowledge of what is best for these races and fans. Here we totally disagree.
Let's take a look at these coding lights for instance. These are nothing more then three sets of three HI LED's on each side of the car.
Let's make 'm expensive for argument's sake,and then still they wouldn't cost much more then a couple of hundred pounds.
Even the smallest teams spend in the order of half a million pounds to participate in these championships,surely something VERY cheap as those lights can be realised.
In my opinion,it is just a lack of willingness to do this.

As JAG rightly points out,it is a form of contempt or just disinterest to the fans. I'm a hardcore Sportscar enthousiast for many years now,and I'd still go and see them when I had to fight to come near the track,but there's an ever increasing feeling that Í should be VERY pleased that I'm allowed to see them cars race,while it should really be the other way round,the organisers and teams should be pleased to see us fans come to see THEM racing!

[GTfour]

It's not all bad ofcourse. The way RfH allways welcomes their fans is a great example for other teams. Especially Jan Lammers,who is just as down to earth a guy as the next man when you talk to him. A very dry sence of humor and very sympathetic(maybe the fact that my girl took of her shirt in front of him to get it autographed,helped a little as well... )

I also fondly remember the time when,during the pitwalk on Friday,Peter Kox invited Me,my girl and another couple to come with him in the pitbox to take a close look at the Spyker he was driving! I had a great chat with him wearing an annoyingly big grin for the entire time...

[Adam43]

Oh yes, I agee the three might as well be done. It doesn't cost much. Although I'm not that fussed and I wouldn't class it as a big improvement, but they might as well.

As an aside, I forget how they work; if there was a change in position how quickly would they update.
Something that tells you which driver is in the car would be better IMHO (there isn't something already is there? )

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by GTfour

A very dry sence of humor and very sympathatic(maybe the fact that my girl took of her shirt in front of him to get it autographed,helped a little as well... )

I don't think I'll try that.

I also fondly remember the time when,during the pitwalk on Friday,Peter Kox invited Me,my girl and another couple to come with him in the pitbox to take a close look at the Spyker he was driving! A had a great chat with him wearing an annoyingly big grin for the entire time...

That is great. Now that is meeting someone and an experience. Worth 400 autograph sessions.

[GTfour]

I don't know exactly how they work,I guess the best way would be with a small transmitter/receiver in contact with race control,updating every time they pas start/finish line or such.

As for being able to see which driver is in the car,I think it would be possible somehow to make something for that aswell,allthough I allways find it a nice challenge to make that out by looking closely at them myself.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by GTfour

allthough I allways find it a nice challenge to make that out by looking closely at them myself.

Can be done for the regular top drivers and cars, if in a good location, but not for all drivers at Le Mans. Well it is possible, but not something for the casual fan

[GTfour]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Can be done for the regular top drivers and cars, if in a good location, but not for all drivers at Le Mans. Well it is possible, but not something for the casual fan

At night it is even downright impossible to recognise the drivers in the closed cars...
Come to think of it,this idea of yours would be another nice extra for following the race closely.

But let's not overplay our hand,for me the ALMS way would really be a gift I'd appreciate for the time being.
It's basically nothing more then modernising the cars to demands of the time....

[JAG]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

38,000 at Donington and what would those free tickets contribute to the income of the event to offset the expenditure?

I may be, and hope I am wrong, but I fear the lack of the above from your list is more a result of their experience and research that the level of expenditure required is unlikely to be worth it. It could well be that rather than apathy.

There is also a little bit of chicken and egg here I guess.

Call me Mr Negative!

What expendicture?

A few screens, a little advertising and the invitation of car clubs, memorabilia stands etc?

The ACO put on the greatest show on earth every year, they quite obviously believe off track action is important for the big one.

It has been proven, time and again, that investment in promotion gives results, if the on track action is upto standard.

As I say, when manufactuers promoted the FIA GT series they had, relatively, large crowds. When they left crowds plumeted.

With Peugeot and hopefully Audi, theres an opportunity to step things up.

Individual British GT rounds pack them in, Spanish GT does, Belcar does, the list goes on, all 'lesser' sportscar series outshining the pinacle of the sport.

Whats the betting Jonathan Palmer would ensure Brands would be packed if the LMS showed up?

[old man]

Some of this question of who would pay for the facilities that we would like to see may depend on who gets the income from the spectators and that is something I don't know about.

When SRO decide where to run a race I believe the decision is taken based on the cost to them of hiring the circuit and whether that can be covered from the income they get from the entry fees, the hospitality packages they sell and I suppose there are other elements of their income.

Perhaps at say, Spa the hire cost is relatively low because of the spectator income to the circuit owners but at a circuit where numbers are normally low the owner will want a higher fee. J Palmer did not have the BGT one year and SRO said it was because his hire charge was too much but the following year a deal was done, was it that JP worked out a way of getting fans to come and so lowered his rental charge to SRO?

Silverstone is run by the BRDC, what do they do about gate money, is it all kept by them or their organising sub-contractor or is it split with SRO? Who, for instance, paid for "Our Nige"? Scuderia Ecosse gained little by bringing him in and do not, it would seem have the budget to pay him and it is inconceivable that he did it for nothing so who paid? Circuit promoter, SRO, both, Who? And what was the resulting increase in gate income and was it worth the investment?

As we can see from the fact that we are to have two F1 races in Spain now, the public there have a hero and we all know that the public follow the drivers to a large extent so Spain wants two races to see Alonso. The real fans may follow the cars but there are not enough of "us" to pay for the improved facilities so how can we break into this circle and improve the package to get income growth from spectators? It would be interesting to know more about the way the whole thing works because we are talking without a lot of the facts. Neverthless I would like to see much more promotion from within the sport in an attempt to build a wider fan base. Is that what JP did at Brands and Oulton and what Donington failed to do for the last LMS race there when information was non existant. Will the new Donington owners ever get a chance to show what they could do for top level Sportscar racing, what was the BGT meeting like for the fans?

We all seem to think that the ALMS is doing a good job, do they make a profit or is it all subsidised by Mr Panoz?

More questions than answers it seems

[HORNDAWG]

Well it would seem that some consideration for the fans has been taken up by the ACO. We can only hope that it continues into the series and not remain, mostly, the provenance of LeMans.

L.P.