Possible changes to UK flag signals

[Peter Scillitoe]

MSA have gone out to public consultation today about possible changes to UK flag signals. Have only read the information quickly this evening, but would appear they are looking at:

(a) Changing Waved Yellow to Double Waved Yellow.
(b) Changing Stationary Yellow to Single Waved Yellow.
(c) Stationary Green becomes waved.
(d) Reintroduction of Battenburg Flag (or Code 60 to our continental cousins).

Apart from making safety car crews redundant (and I express a personal interest here), with low manning levels will be interesting to see how many marshals can wave two flags at the same time, particularly on a windy or wet day. Also, will this really make a difference to racing speeds in yellow flag zones. I'll get my coat.

[Pete Howarth]

I asked the question on were are the additional marshals are coming from, especially when there are lots of meetings on the same day

[mark_l]

Love to see the flag marshal at the incident waving 2 flags at the same time, while holding out the SC board for 4 laps.

I know of a case where the 'Battenberg' was a contributing factor in death of a driver, so will not want to see that flag return.

As for the waved single yellow and waved green will not make the slightest bit of difference, it is just the MSA following in the FIA footsteps for the hell of it, with no real justification.

MSA should learn the lesson 'if it isn't broke, don't fix it' and stop tinkering at the edges and do something constructive and grow a backbone and cull dying championships, sort out the ladder of progression in single seaters and then look at the working conditions of marshals.

Here endeth the rant.

[exflagman]

And when that fails will they go to triple waved yellows?

When will the MSA grow a pair of balls and sort out the real problem - enforce the rules, penalise drivers who ignore flags.

[White flag man]

Originally Posted by Peter Scillitoe

MSA have gone out to public consultation today about possible changes to UK flag signals. Have only read the information quickly this evening, but would appear they are looking at:

(a) Changing Waved Yellow to Double Waved Yellow.
(b) Changing Stationary Yellow to Single Waved Yellow.
(c) Stationary Green becomes waved.
(d) Reintroduction of Battenburg Flag (or Code 60 to our continental cousins).

Apart from making safety car crews redundant (and I express a personal interest here), with low manning levels will be interesting to see how many marshals can wave two flags at the same time, particularly on a windy or wet day. Also, will this really make a difference to racing speeds in yellow flag zones. I'll get my coat.

Does this mean live snatches will have triple waved yellows?
From what I saw last weekend, all you need to do is stick out the SC board, whether the SC is out or not, too make cars slow down. They didn't slow down under waved yellows (with one car almost driving into the stricken car, which was off circuit) until the SC board was shown. Having said that, full course yellows worked quite well at Silverstone earlier in the year.

[Chigley]

OK; track blocked/partially obstructed and with a respectable oil slick, that equates to three flags (at the moment according to the proposed consultation). PC is busy on radio/phone so no help there, your flagging single handed, your other two bodies (I'm being generous with manpower) are moving out to assess drivers, damage etc. Whereas a flaggie could cover the incident with a waved yellow and agitated change of surface flag you're now scuppered; which flag do you drop or are we to grip the third flag with our teeth or wave it from where the sun don't shine.

[MGDavid]

as a driver I welcome any standardisation across both sides of the channel, I'm old and I forget where I am sometimes. Double yellows do catch the eye especially when waved energetically!

[Chigley]

I know of a case where the 'Battenberg' was a contributing factor in death of a driver, so will not want to see that flag return.

unless it is used strictly under Code 60 regs.

[Johansen2000]

Putting aside the issue of rule enforcement and accepting the fact I might be in a minority with this but I can see some logic in following the fia with flag signals.....

Ive seen a few times when at a meeting with national and international races marshals getting mixed up between flagging to fia rules and msa rules, this obviously leads to invalid flag signals being given and following the fia model would at least deal with this.......

[Tim Falce]

Green should always be stationary but agree with the waved yellows, however many you want to wave at us. I have seen green flags that are so washed out (or have been in the coloured wash) that they look yellow so you cant tell the difference from a distance.
So if anything that means danger is waved and anything that is go is stationary than at least we don't have to think too hard.
As for the battenburg, burn it.

[Chigley]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

as a driver I welcome any standardisation across both sides of the channel, I'm old and I forget where I am sometimes. Double yellows do catch the eye especially when waved energetically!

Yes but you race with championships who are respectful of yellow flags unlike a lot of other more modern championships to whom a momentary lift to show the timekeepers that they fractionally reduced speed and were therefore "in control" (I think not) suffices as an excuse for seeing a yellow.

God, this has really riled me. MSA and CofC GROW A BACKBONE and nail flag indiscretions harshly.

Furious.
Ian

[JimW]

Sounds like this would bring us into line with the FIA requirements. On balance that seems a good thing (which I have argued for some years). However as people say it will highlight the current, continuing shortage of staff for some races/places.

Regards

Jim

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

Green should always be stationary but agree with the waved yellows, however many you want to wave at us. I have seen green flags that are so washed out (or have been in the coloured wash) that they look yellow so you cant tell the difference from a distance.
So if anything that means danger is waved and anything that is go is stationary than at least we don't have to think too hard.

Agreed. Waved is good, you don't look for it, you just see it. If you get what I mean. Obey the flags, and minimise the time to notice them.

I hear the resource issue an it does need to be consistent.

As for the battenburg, burn it.

Experience suggest drivers are too dim to be able do I properly, so I am in agreement. Although it cold be good in theory.

[Tim Falce]

It is good in theory but it never worked at all in all the times I saw it deployed.

[Adam43]

A decision should be made on experience not theory in this one.

[chrisjt1985]

Just on the battenburg, there is the obvious cost to the circuits in providing an extra flag, which for those of us with our own flags transfers over again.

And also, doesn't it rely on it being shown simultaneously around the circuit, and then being withdrawn simultaneously, and not chased round the circuit like we currently do with SC and Red? This would then require flag marshals to be linked by radio, which incurs another cost for the circuits... unless I misunderstood previous posts on "Code 60".

[deley]

Just to confuse things even more - apart from waving flags the MSA proposal on the yellows doesn't bring it into line with the FIA version as the MSA are proposing to still have a yellow (all be it single waved) at the post before the post at the incident (so all they have done is make the stationary yellow into single waved and the waved yellow into double waved.... same meanings as now)

So yellows and their usage/meaning still differs between MSA and FIA under these proposals.

I'll be discussing with other flaggies over the coming weeks and then submit any thoughts/comments I feel necessary as per the MSA Consultation Process.

At least it will give folks something new for Training Days in 2014

Dave

[deley]

Originally Posted by chrisjt1985

Just on the battenburg, there is the obvious cost to the circuits in providing an extra flag, which for those of us with our own flags transfers over again.

And also, doesn't it rely on it being shown simultaneously around the circuit, and then being withdrawn simultaneously, and not chased round the circuit like we currently do with SC and Red? This would then require flag marshals to be linked by radio, which incurs another cost for the circuits... unless I misunderstood previous posts on "Code 60".

Proposal is "flow both ways" not "simultaneous"

However the "Reason" at the end of the proposal says that this is similar to the Code 60 used in Europe .... well it isn't as that one maintains gaps in the field as everyone is at the set speed so you know where and when you can work trackside whereas the MSA proposal still has cars going round trying to catch the leader

[Greem]

The document in question is here:

http://www.msauk.org/site/cms/newsli...ter=276&cat=10

Select "Race Committee May 2013"

[Shelagh]

Not that I'm ever controversial (!). How about spending more time in training drivers to see/obey yellow flags, no matter how many are being waved at each post? Sticking more out won't make any difference if they are still ignored.

This subject is also for debate as to just how clear/obvious those yellow flags are when you are driving past looking in your mirrors, racing etc rather than looking at the flag points.

Let's face it - flags are a real throwback to the past but what else can you use for low-cost and "real" racing where fancy electronic gizmos are not an option, and even trackside lights can be obscured by sun? And this from someone who is proud to be a "flag marshal" and still thinks it is the best job on the circuit.

Discuss?

[White flag man]

Originally Posted by Shelagh

Not that I'm ever controversial (!). How about spending more time in training drivers to see/obey yellow flags, no matter how many are being waved at each post? Sticking more out won't make any difference if they are still ignored.

This subject is also for debate as to just how clear/obvious those yellow flags are when you are driving past looking in your mirrors, racing etc rather than looking at the flag points.

Let's face it - flags are a real throwback to the past but what else can you use for low-cost and "real" racing where fancy electronic gizmos are not an option, and even trackside lights can be obscured by sun? And this from someone who is proud to be a "flag marshal" and still thinks it is the best job on the circuit.

Discuss?

Hi Shelagh,
as another proud flag marshal, I believe there is nothing wrong with the current "system". The problems are; Too many flag posts obscured by fencing/too far away from the circuit. Marshals not using flag signals properly. Drivers not obeying flags.
You can change the signals as often as you like but, as long as we have those 3 problems, it will never make a difference.
I do, however, agree with Tim. Some of the flags we are given need replacing or, at least, washed.

[Ian Briggs]

Dont see the nee for changeing the current flag system,
Do see the need for making better efforts to enforce compliance to flag signals.
Battenburg, Hmmmmmm, mine is hanging in the garage, rareing to go, but it only takes one driver to not FULLY understand what should happen for badness to ensue.

[Bodysnatcher]

http://www.msauk.org/uploadedfiles/r...ceMay2013b.pdf

it seems that 15.3.2 will still allow cars to maintain near race pace until they meet the race leader's "safety car" chain of cars.

"and all competing cars will reduce speed and line up behind the race leader"

by not actually defining what a reduced speed is, the door is wide open for repeats of what happened before.

Why oh why not just copy the code 60?

Strangely enough, while this is supposedly to bring us into line with the FIA flags, I've heard a serious rumour that some races under the FIA's control are looking at implementation of code 60 - except it might be code 80 - 60kph being a bit too slow for the fastest race cars.

[White flag man]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

http://www.msauk.org/uploadedfiles/r...ceMay2013b.pdf

it seems that 15.3.2 will still allow cars to maintain near race pace until they meet the race leader's "safety car" chain of cars.

"and all competing cars will reduce speed and line up behind the race leader"

by not actually defining what a reduced speed is, the door is wide open for repeats of what happened before.

.

So why not just put out a safety car?
In the event of it being deployed during an endurance race, during the pit window, when everybody darts into the pits to change driver/tyres, will the leader know he is the leader??!!
BTW, why aren't you on the beach?!

[Bodysnatcher]

indeed, this planned implementation adds nothing to a Safety Car intervention and seemingly changes nothing from previous Battenburg usage.

As for dodging beach duty - too hot, too many race weekends, consecutive (two) weekends, too historic.