Do we need "Touring cars" in GT racing??

[Speed-King]

A comment from the GTx-thread reminded me of a problem I have been thinking about lately. In order to don't distract the original thread, I'll post my thought here.

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

The Rules many not be great or perfect for each manufacture, but it is something they could live with and adapt to the rules to race and get their name( marketing ) out to fans.

My question is: Do the current GT-manufacturers really need to bring their name out to the fans?
I doubt it, because car makers like Aston Martin, Ferrari or Lambo only appeal to the very rich and wealthy. So for these companies there's no real need to promote their name towards a wider audience, and I think this is one of the problems GT-racing suffers from, nowadays.

Granted, there are already manufacturers in GT-racing that have a bit of a broader appeal like Corvette or Porsche, but this doesn't seem enough to create a GT-series with a wide mainstream appeal.
So I wonder if a reglement that allowed the sportier cars of the big manufacturers (like Ford Mustangs, Nissan 350Z, Mazda RX8, or Mercedes CLK) into GT racing would have a bigger potential in the mainstream media.

What are your thoughts on that issue and how could that be achieved rules-wise?

[juicy sushi]

well, i think there's a couple of things which could be done,but at the same time, first those manufacturers would have to want to campaign GT cars.

i think that if nissan came to its senses and ran the upcoming GT-R in competition, then the first thing would be to ensure that turbo-charged cars have a fair shake in GT1. at the present time, they don't, and so there's little point in running the GT-R (since it wouldn't be likely to fit in the class structure in a lower class, and nissan might not want to run it in one).

additionally, lexus will have a new GT next year, and at some point down the road, honda will also have an NSX replacement (possibly). i think that if very strong efforts were made to ensure that super gt rules were the same as fia and aco gt rules, then these cars would have a much better chance of being raced, and the brands behind them are much more promotionally minded. but at the same time, i think the high end manufacturers do have an incentive to race, as it adds aura and respect for the brand. aston martin's new cars have a lot more credibility after their GT racing efforts, and the ferrari and porsche brands names have all their mystique because of their racing history (and in particular, the lengthy histories they have). and corvette has certainly added some image with the success they've had in gt1. and the new bugatti, koenigsegg, and pagani offerings, while nice are certainly not quite as cool in my eyes simply because they don't have this history of success.

as for the specific models you mentioned, they can and already do race in FIA GT4/Grand-Am Koni Challenge/Super Taikyu to an extent...

[JAG]

The likes of Ratel believe poster cars from Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini etc will bring in the punters.

Experience shows well promoted series backed by major, mainstream manufactuers is the way to go.

Audi, Peugeot, Acura, Nissan, Mazda etc. can run protoypes, and their marketing spend will ensure the public are aware of their racing programs.

You only need look to the UK today, there is currently a very high profile Peugeot 908 TV and a new Audi R10/Shell radio ad, when was the last time you saw a similar ad from a niche GT manufactuer?

It's no coincidence these ad's are for diesel cars, I can imagine we'll see plenty of ad's in future years from manufactuers running hybrids and alternative fueled cars, as they're relevant to major manufactuers road car markets.

[The Badger]

Certainly not ..... if i want touring cars , i can watch the BTCC and die from boredom !!!

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by juicy sushi

well, i think there's a couple of things which could be done,but at the same time, first those manufacturers would have to want to campaign GT cars.

One could argue about that. Where should the manufacturers race their cars if there's no series that fits their cars?

i think that if nissan came to its senses and ran the upcoming GT-R in competition, then the first thing would be to ensure that turbo-charged cars have a fair shake in GT1. at the present time, they don't, and so there's little point in running the GT-R (since it wouldn't be likely to fit in the class structure in a lower class, and nissan might not want to run it in one).

additionally, lexus will have a new GT next year, and at some point down the road, honda will also have an NSX replacement (possibly). i think that if very strong efforts were made to ensure that super gt rules were the same as fia and aco gt rules, then these cars would have a much better chance of being raced, and the brands behind them are much more promotionally minded.

The problem might be that a good number manufacturers don't have cars that fit into the current GT regs and even of those a good number don't believe in halo marketing, but want to race the cars they actually sell in signifikant numbers.

as for the specific models you mentioned, they can and already do race in FIA GT4/Grand-Am Koni Challenge/Super Taikyu to an extent...

Yet these series are 2nd or third tire privateer series and I can't see a manufacturer spending big money in order to promote these series.

I got this whole idea about "touring-style cars" in GT racing while reading some stuff about the late 70s DRM and Worldchampionship of makes, where the Zakspeed Capris or the BMW 320s challenged the Porsche 935s. At the same time we had a similar situation stateside, where the Chevy Monzas took on the 935s.
I think it would be interesting to see a current version of these battles and cars...

[juicy sushi]

what you're talking about though, are silhouette cars rather than unibody gt cars, and it appears there is a move away from silhouette cars due to their lack of production relevance and the extreme costs which can result from having an extremely open rules format.

there is the DTM, and the GT500 cars in Super GT are decidedly silhouette in nature (and Grand-Am's Prep 2 rules in GT are a slower silhouette formula), however the current trend in global gt rules is away from this type of race car. i think that the current ideas surrounding the possible 2010 rules for LMP coupes are closer to what you're thinking of.


the idea of seeing "everyman's" performance cars going at it with the big boys is appealing to fans, but less so to manufacturers, especially the premium brands who would not wish to see their image diluted by association (and possible losses to) more down market machinery. they would likely not participate, and so you'd be left with only the lower brands (and thereby losing some of the appeal of sports car racing for some fans)...

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Granted, there are already manufacturers in GT-racing that have a bit of a broader appeal like Corvette or Porsche, but this doesn't seem enough to create a GT-series with a wide mainstream appeal.
So I wonder if a reglement that allowed the sportier cars of the big manufacturers (like Ford Mustangs, Nissan 350Z, Mazda RX8, or Mercedes CLK) into GT racing would have a bigger potential in the mainstream media.

What are your thoughts on that issue and how could that be achieved rules-wise?

In the US Grand AM GT class has the Mustangs GTs, Nissan 350Z, Mazda RX8, some Corvettes, and Porsche GT3s.

Speed World Touring has Mazda 3s, Audi A4s, 350zs, Acura TSs, Chevy Colbalts, BMW M3s and the like.

Watching these cars at a race is great, but on TV they just look slow.

[dj choc ice]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Certainly not ..... if i want touring cars , i can watch the BTCC and die from boredom !!!

depends what will kill you first, a car flying off in the BTCC or boredom , BTCC at knockhill was a bit of a farse but thats for another thread.

on the thing of seeing more everyday car's in the GT1 and GT2 class there was a GT2 spec nissan 350Z campaigned by RJN ltd but it was a pile of poop compared to the porsche's and ferrari's.

i think the car's that could fit into GT2 from big manufacturer's are as follows:

current car's

nissan 350Z
porsche 911 GT3
ferrari F430
panoz esperante GTLM
spyker C8 GTR

supposed car's imo

mazda RX8
porsche cayman S
audi R8
aston martin V8 vantage
BMW M3 E92 i think is the series designation for the new car
mazda RX8
maserati gransport
audi A5
mercedes CLK
mercedes SLK
audi TT

for GT1 i dont think there are many mainstream car's i can think of that would fit in, probably only the BMW M6 and mercedes mclaren SLR and price wise they are hardly mainstream, but brandwise BMW are certainly very mainstream especially in the UK, mercedes not so much as BMW in the UK.

[Garp]

Touringcars NO NO NO NO,

BUT, imho Touringcars are 4 door Saloons

GT cars are 2 door rear wheel driven cars.
So a 350Z and a Mustang are perfectly alowed for GT racing

So that leaves out the 2 door front wheel driven coupe's which belong in no class what so ever, (these cars are pointless anyway)

We can discuss this as long as you want but in the end it's the thruth.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by juicy sushi

what you're talking about though, are silhouette cars rather than unibody gt cars, and it appears there is a move away from silhouette cars due to their lack of production relevance and the extreme costs which can result from having an extremely open rules format.

I don't think that a silhouette approach would necessarily be they way to make these cars competitive. With the FIA probably switching to GT3+ the race cars will be a good bit less extrem.
While the "inspiration" for my idea comes from the 70s, I think it is possible to realize it with the methods of today. Just take the BMW M3 GTR for example. I think an approach like this might enable the performance cars of today to compete with purebred GT cars. Maybe a rule that allowed every production engine of the respective company as a base for the race engine would be a good idea to avoid silly homologation specials for the performance car based machines.

the idea of seeing "everyman's" performance cars going at it with the big boys is appealing to fans, but less so to manufacturers, especially the premium brands who would not wish to see their image diluted by association (and possible losses to) more down market machinery. they would likely not participate, and so you'd be left with only the lower brands (and thereby losing some of the appeal of sports car racing for some fans)...

The problem of the alienation of the premium brands and their fans occured to me as well and I haven't found an easy answer to it, because when the boutique car makers would leave the serie, we'd end up with another touring car circus.
Actually it is already happening today to a certain extent with the Corvettes taking on and beating the Astons, Massas and Lambos and I don't see anybody complain about this. I can however see people complaining about an Aston losing against an Mazda RX8.
This truly would be a serious problem. Maybe different classes for the performance and the supercars are a possibility to avoid this.

[Zytek_Fan]

There's supposedly going to be a Mercedes GT2, not a manufacturer but a privateer, and Doran has said the Ford GT GT2 programme is going along well.

[dj4monie]

Those G2 teams haven't appeared and I doubt they will now, more fodder for The Bear.

We do have some interesting things happening in the market which always has an effect on the racing.

Toyota, Nissan and Honda are about the battle it out on the premium GT car front.

As mentioned, you have the new Lexus GT car, Nissan GT-R (formerly Skyline GT-R) and front engined Honda NSX replacement.

All will have either turbocharged engines or fairly large displacement V8 and V10 engines.

Wherever Honda is, Toyota is never far behind and Toyota and Nissan have butted heads here in America more than once, so there's a chance you'll see that again.

That's why I say not to scrap the current GT1 regs just yet and there's always BMW looming as they want back "in" but only if it makes sense.

Also now that Benz is separated from Chrysler chances you'll see a Merc sportscar or GT car isn't as remote as it was maybe a year ago. It also looks like Dodge isn't happy with the way SCCA runs WC and might elect to move "upmarket" in their Competition Coupe racing program. I sure they like they idea that they have sold every Comp Coupe built and if they built a GT2 spec car with help from Orcea, it would sell well and they wouldn't need to field a factory ran team, just give technical support like Porsche and Ferrari do.

As I have always said the ALMS is on the verge of some BIG moves here, we'll see if the domino's fall our way

[pitviper]

That Mercedes GT2 is not going to happen. Look for it as a prep 2 in Rolex though... at least, that's the intention now...

pit

[pederb]

Originally Posted by Garp

Touringcars NO NO NO NO,

BUT, imho Touringcars are 4 door Saloons

GT cars are 2 door rear wheel driven cars.
So a 350Z and a Mustang are perfectly alowed for GT racing

So that leaves out the 2 door front wheel driven coupe's which belong in no class what so ever, (these cars are pointless anyway)

We can discuss this as long as you want but in the end it's the thruth.

I agree, a Touring has 4 doors. It's like SCCA has Caddy's running in Speed GT, fun but not really appropriate IMHO