New GTS cars

DanJR1 · 23 May 2002, 19:54 (Ref:293950)

would you like the new GTS cars like the Pagani and Carrera GT to be able to fight for overal victory against the prototypes?

SL · 23 May 2002, 20:20 (Ref:293976)

A yes for me, but there should be some form of restriction so that all cars are fairly evenly matched.

Simon

**Adam43** · 23 May 2002, 20:25 (Ref:293984)

As long as you make the GTS cars go faster, rather than the prototypes slower.

paul-collins · 23 May 2002, 20:37 (Ref:294000)

As Adam said ...

but there's a thread on some other, less user-friendly board about the viability of GT, and they're *horrified* at the idea that carbon frames could be introduced into GTS for 2004 - as if the costs aren't high enough already.

Although, as I think about it, maybe GTS with a chance for overall victory would kill the prototypes' support from factories. Maybe that's not such a good thing.

Hrm. I'll have to think about it.

paulzinho · 23 May 2002, 21:08 (Ref:294059)

There are reasons for different classes, for me the prototypes should rule the roost. Actually as i've said many a time, they should bring back Group C!!!!!!

Speedworx · 23 May 2002, 21:12 (Ref:294063)

No way would I like to see the GTS cars beating the LMP cars. That would ruin the whole sportscar world.

The Brethren · 23 May 2002, 21:51 (Ref:294104)

Quote:

There are reasons for different classes, for me the prototypes should rule the roost. Actually as i've said many a time, they should bring back Group C!!!!!!

I'm with you there fella, bring back the Group C muthas !!

Rusty

paulzinho · 23 May 2002, 22:27 (Ref:294128)

Quote:

Originally posted by The Brethren

I'm with you there fella, bring back the Group C muthas !!

Rusty

Good to see that you think in the right way!!

**Adam43** · 23 May 2002, 22:27 (Ref:294129)

On reflection I pretty much like the class system as it is (although I wish there were more closed prototypes).

I think what I was suggesting is that you just make the GTS into GT1-type machines that can challenge the prototypes! This is clearly not a good idea - it could end up ruining both classes!

hmmm. More thought is needed. Leave it as it is, I think. Rule stability is a great thing. Perhaps encourage more Toyota, Bentley type cars by allowing them larger tyres (with less engine power?).

The GTS is looking great as it is. It doesn't need to challenge for overall wins. And the winner of Le Mans needs to be faster and a bit more special (IMO).

**Adam43** · 23 May 2002, 22:28 (Ref:294133)

Forgot to say, Group C rocks.

Osella · 23 May 2002, 22:41 (Ref:294145)

I must admit a slight bias (or ignorance) in that I've never seen Group C cars in their natural habitat and it was the existence of 'real' GT cars like the McLaren F1 and Ferrari F40, and Jag XJ220 that got me into LeMans again.

Maybe the GT cars could be handed a slight break in giving them larger fuel tanks or a bit more power.

And there is a slight romance, for me, about those who choose to enter low-end vehicles like the Porsche 968 and Renault Alpine that acheived acceptable results in recent years.

Maybe they should allow more SARD MC8R-type cars, eg half roadcar based, half bespoke racer... whoops, wasn't that the first Porsche 911 GT1!

FastJoel31 · 23 May 2002, 23:37 (Ref:294200)

I don't think so. That's what GTP is for, and I would NOT mind seeing some more of those fighting for the overall victory.

Mal · 24 May 2002, 06:54 (Ref:294402)

I think we should leave things be for the time being. with the current rul stability and the growing strength of ALMS, I think LeMans is on the up at the moment

egor · 24 May 2002, 07:50 (Ref:294428)

Someone persaude Tom (Walkinshaw) and Jaguar to forget formula 1 and bring back the glory days of Group C racing

Then not let the FIA get there greedy hands on it and

it up again.

Es Nes · 24 May 2002, 07:59 (Ref:294441)

mmm ... bringing back cars like the 905 does sound good

Fab · 24 May 2002, 08:15 (Ref:294458)

I like the idea of several races inside the race : the actual four (main) categories (LMP and LMPGT together)are pleasant to follow...

The question is to have enough possible winners in each category.

BTW, I like the idea of MG matching the LMP 900 too...

I'm a little bit conservative concerning LM... sorry !

kdr · 24 May 2002, 09:05 (Ref:294508)

i like the things the way they are also. the gts cars winning at daytona diluted the event a little.

fab...send me your email address and i'll forward a higher res of that mcnish picture if you wish.

Fab · 24 May 2002, 09:20 (Ref:294521)

Quote:

Originally posted by kdr
i like the things the way they are also. the gts cars winning at daytona diluted the event a little.

fab...send me your email address and i'll forward a higher res of that mcnish picture if you wish.

It's always fun to see the weak win, but I was a little bit disappointed last year to see the first GT at the sixth place. It means several things :
- not enough LMP to hold 24 hours
- a desesperate behaviour of GM, staying in the pits because there was no more opposition
- Porsche GT are really tough to fight !

I like to see things in order (I'm REALLY conservative here

) : I don't like cars starting the race from the pit-lane (shame to see the Callaway making a real good time at qualifications, and missing the start !), I don't like to see a LMP in the middle of the GT in the first lap of the race - after, it's OK -, and so on...

The heterogeneity of performances in LMP 675 makes this category difficult to follow. What's the connection between the MG and the AutoExe ? They don't run the same race...

Wide debate anyway...

Kdr, I posted you my mail... thanks very much !

cybersdorf · 24 May 2002, 09:59 (Ref:294572)

I'm all for it. The FIA way is more common supercars wit hmore modifications, the ACO way is the most thoroughbred supercars with less modifications, the results should be just about evenly matched.

Osella · 24 May 2002, 11:19 (Ref:294696)

Actually maybe they needn't do anything for the GT cars- for a 911 to finish sixth means it is a real competitor.

I know forum members like to slag off(well, ignore) the Porsche hordes because a)they can't remember their names b)they can't pronounce their names and c)they're as old as your dad, only a lot richer and a much better racecar driver (sometimes)but the fact is, if you can't kep your machine running 24hrs, one of these things will beat you!

On the difference between FIA and ACO cars,it must be frustrating for the designers and teams. ACO cars are allowed 'real racecar' features like carbon brakes, titanium valves, but must keep H-pattern gearboxes and luggage space!

Truckosaurus · 24 May 2002, 11:48 (Ref:294745)

I think the current situation where the top GTS cars are almost as quick as the slower (non-MG

) LMP675 cars is about right.

Lee Janotta · 24 May 2002, 11:54 (Ref:294750)

I'm dead set against allowing these six-figure supercars in GTS. If they're to race, they should be put in a separate class. Create a GT1 or GTX class for them, where they can race the prototypes all they want. GTS costs would skyrocket out of control. All the current cars would have to go, there'd be grid shrinkage...

I think it's better to stay the current direction, as maintaining some semblance of rules stability will allow the series to continue growing. One of the reasons IMSA went under after GTP ended was that fans had to learn a totally different set of classes (the other was that the cars just plain weren't attractive. There's no comparing a Nissan GTP-Z with a R&S Mk III)

Perhaps, in a few years, we could revamp the class structure. Make GTS and GT closer to production and close some loopholes (basically make them start from bodies in white), give turbo cars a bit more parity to allow turbo Porsches, RX-7s, maybe a turbocharged Lotus Elise to compete. Maybe try and even up LMP900 a little, maybe FIA-style full roll bars on the 900s to differentiate them from the 675s, which by then will all be new-style (I hope!). And then open up that supercar class.

paul-collins · 24 May 2002, 13:04 (Ref:294876)

Quote:

Originally posted by kdr
i like the things the way they are also. the gts cars winning at daytona diluted the event a little.

Nah, you've got it the wrong way around. The diluted event allowed the GTS cars to win. I certainly wouldn't advocate sandbagging the LMPs to get them to GTS levels.
(Aside - passed my rookie test! This is my 21st post)

Osella · 24 May 2002, 23:58 (Ref:295467)

I think the rules right now are okay.
It's a pity that a Lister, TVR Speed 12, or Sintura aren't legal, though

MaxSport · 28 May 2002, 07:12 (Ref:298195)

Supercars should have a chance to win overall. It is hard to sell sponsors on the idea of winning your class.

GT-Supercars should not be that expensive to run-if they are not allowed to morph into Prototypes like GT-1 did. Keep the hologation numbers up and that won't happen.

The costs of purchasing racing versions of cars like the Porsche Carrera,F-60 and Zonda C-12 will be higher than current cars, but operating costs should not be.

Besides,todays GTS cars are six figures already. Even GT class racers like the Porsche GT3RS and 360 Modena cost 300-400K. LMP cars start at 500K. The costs of crew,airfares,hotels and transporters are about the same for all three classes. This is why the FIA and ACO are going to go ahead with the Supercar class. They know McLaren F1 GTRs and Ferrari F-40 GTs racing in the BPR and LM24 were much more interesting than what we have now and certainly won't cost more than a privateer LMP effort.

KM

BTW-The ACO are leaning towards allowing Supercars to run for the overall win with the LMPs.

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View Poll Results: would you like the new GTS cars to be able to fight for overall victory?
yes	11	36.67%
No	19	63.33%
Voters: 30. You may not vote on this poll