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Old 16 Jan 2014, 19:48 (Ref:3354864)   #26
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Well, fingers crossed, nothing to show yet, but to get Gp1 off the ground properly the right tyres are going to be needed. With the 'Goodwood initiative' hopefully resulting in more cars getting out to play (elsewhere) afterwards, it is important that it happens sooner rather than later!

What axle ratio choices do you have with the Dolomite? With an RS2 it would be possible to adjust ratio to suit tyre diameter- within reason.

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Old 17 Jan 2014, 11:20 (Ref:3355099)   #27
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Hi Guys,

have a look at my blog and if you have any pictures of your cars or other period pictures it would be great that you send them to me so I can ad them to my database.

http://touringcarmadness.tumblr.com
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Old 17 Jan 2014, 16:43 (Ref:3355224)   #28
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Well, fingers crossed, nothing to show yet, but to get Gp1 off the ground properly the right tyres are going to be needed. With the 'Goodwood initiative' hopefully resulting in more cars getting out to play (elsewhere) afterwards, it is important that it happens sooner rather than later!

What axle ratio choices do you have with the Dolomite? With an RS2 it would be possible to adjust ratio to suit tyre diameter- within reason.

I only run the car with the one ratio at the moment and will talk with Ken on options. I've just looked at another set of tyres that came off the car and they are 175/530-13, another at 145/530-13 and the majority of the old tyres are 185/550-13. The period wet pattern of the Dunlops is quite different to to the current Avons.

I think the normal ratio is around 4.1:1 and there is I believe a 3.9:1 and a 4.5:1 available.
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Old 17 Jan 2014, 17:19 (Ref:3355248)   #29
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I only run the car with the one ratio at the moment and will talk with Ken on options. I've just looked at another set of tyres that came off the car and they are 175/530-13, another at 145/530-13 and the majority of the old tyres are 185/550-13. The period wet pattern of the Dunlops is quite different to to the current Avons.

I think the normal ratio is around 4.1:1 and there is I believe a 3.9:1 and a 4.5:1 available.
Diff ratios not much different to Escort choice. A lot of the Ford English axle CWP sets come straight from another model, so availabilty not too difficult on most.

Avon do two standard treaded patterns for slicks, their block pattern being the norm, plus an 'allweather' pattern that looks similar to a period Dunlop. Usually the latter are harder compound so can be used wet or dry.

What sort of diameter are the tyres mentioned?
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Old 17 Jan 2014, 19:50 (Ref:3355325)   #30
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Diff ratios not much different to Escort choice. A lot of the Ford English axle CWP sets come straight from another model, so availabilty not too difficult on most.

Avon do two standard treaded patterns for slicks, their block pattern being the norm, plus an 'allweather' pattern that looks similar to a period Dunlop. Usually the latter are harder compound so can be used wet or dry.

What sort of diameter are the tyres mentioned?
I know that the 185/550 13 are tread width 185mm, 550 overall diameter and a 220mm section width when mounted on 5.5J 13 inch rim inflated. I'll see if the others will accept air and blow them up and measure.
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Old 17 Jan 2014, 20:37 (Ref:3355365)   #31
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I know that the 185/550 13 are tread width 185mm, 550 overall diameter and a 220mm section width when mounted on 5.5J 13 inch rim inflated. I'll see if the others will accept air and blow them up and measure.
So in old money we are looking for a 21 to 21.5" diameter tyre. Avon list a 7.0/21.0x13 which is pretty close. Question will be if it is available and in a suitable compound! FF2000 run 6.5/21.0x13 fronts on 6" rims so will see how one looks alongside a 185/60x13 road tyre on same width wheel.
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Old 18 Jan 2014, 08:18 (Ref:3355518)   #32
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So in old money we are looking for a 21 to 21.5" diameter tyre. Avon list a 7.0/21.0x13 which is pretty close. Question will be if it is available and in a suitable compound! FF2000 run 6.5/21.0x13 fronts on 6" rims so will see how one looks alongside a 185/60x13 road tyre on same width wheel.
Assuming Avon tyres. What is the difference between a Crossply slick and a Historic slick? Is it compound, construction etc? Just thinking on Group 1 through to the early 80's. At what point does one know that a Historic slick tyre is required that conforms to this period, or does a Crossply slick not constitute the same construction as used in the early 80's?
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Old 18 Jan 2014, 12:12 (Ref:3355578)   #33
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Assuming Avon tyres. What is the difference between a Crossply slick and a Historic slick? Is it compound, construction etc? Just thinking on Group 1 through to the early 80's. At what point does one know that a Historic slick tyre is required that conforms to this period, or does a Crossply slick not constitute the same construction as used in the early 80's?
Good question, and one I will put to BMTR next time we speak! Presume like me you have found different lists on the websites?

The tyres they have supplied me in the past for Gp2 and FF2000 are from the "crossply slick" list rather than the "historic" one, so....... Edit- FF2000 from historic list. Seems to be specific tyres for specific applications, and looking at 15" tyres higher profile than others!

The 6.5/21.0x13 mentioned previously would, given all other boxes ticked, be useable on an Escort. That is a start!

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Old 18 Jan 2014, 13:31 (Ref:3355594)   #34
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Good question, and one I will put to BMTR next time we speak! Presume like me you have found different lists on the websites?

The tyres they have supplied me in the past for Gp2 and FF2000 are from the "crossply slick" list rather than the "historic" one, so....... Edit- FF2000 from historic list. Seems to be specific tyres for specific applications, and looking at 15" tyres higher profile than others!

The 6.5/21.0x13 mentioned previously would, given all other boxes ticked, be useable on an Escort. That is a start!
Yes, looking at the crossply slicks listings there seems to be a much greater variance of sizes and I can only assume that these tyres must be of the type that our touring cars used in period. I think I can find some that are a little undersized in all dimensions that'll fit on the rim and make up for it with diff ratios. It is the losing of over 10mm of tread width that is the frustrating part. Not so bad if they are 250mm + wide, but we're talking loss of 7% of the available width here for my particular car.
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Old 18 Jan 2014, 16:34 (Ref:3355646)   #35
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Mike. Presumably you have to run the english axle on the Mk 1. What about the Mk 2? Was it the english in Gp1 and an atlas option in Gp2?
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Old 18 Jan 2014, 18:30 (Ref:3355671)   #36
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Mike. Presumably you have to run the english axle on the Mk 1. What about the Mk 2? Was it the english in Gp1 and an atlas option in Gp2?
Peter, the Atlas was homologated in April '76 for Gp1, when car was in Mk2 form, but obviously a narrow version using normal springs, drums and tramp bars. I'm not sure if it was / is able to be used on Mk1. The car I am building is a Mk2, but sticking with English.....

Ant, am sure now that the "historic" Avon list is specific tyres and compounds that are for certain formulae and applications.
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Old 20 Jan 2014, 21:50 (Ref:3356411)   #37
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P

I'm going to pop in and see Paul at BMTR and take an old period slick tyre with me. Hopefully we'll find something suitable in size and application and we can learn what we need to be working towards for the future.

I don't think there is anything that's 100% exact and ready to go at the moment for any of us in Gp1, so it may just be that we find something that is near enough and simply go testing with it and learn what's what.
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Old 21 Jan 2014, 07:05 (Ref:3356528)   #38
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I'm going to pop in and see Paul at BMTR and take an old period slick tyre with me. Hopefully we'll find something suitable in size and application and we can learn what we need to be working towards for the future.

I don't think there is anything that's 100% exact and ready to go at the moment for any of us in Gp1, so it may just be that we find something that is near enough and simply go testing with it and learn what's what.
Excellent idea! You are a bit closer than me. Reckon 6.5 or 7.0 / 21 will be close.

Give Paul and Peter my regards!

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Old 21 Jan 2014, 07:35 (Ref:3356534)   #39
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I don't think there is anything that's 100% exact and ready to go at the moment for any of us in Gp1, so it may just be that we find something that is near enough and simply go testing with it and learn what's what.
This is, I think, the crux of the matter. Ultimately whilst we would all like to run the tyres that the original cars ran, there must be a compromise because otherwise we'll be forced into paying to have "our" tyres made specially. I think that as long as the tyres are capable of running on the cars, the exact sizing is arguably irrelevant.

The point being that even if your diff ratio isn't quite right for a particular track, does it really matter? I'd be quite happy to stick to Toyos simply because as far as grip levels are concerned they probably represent similar levels to the period slicks.

Of course this is a somewhat pragmatic view but let's not lose sight of the fact that we are amateurs and thus tyre construction is probably the least of our worries.
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Old 21 Jan 2014, 07:55 (Ref:3356539)   #40
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I've used 185/60 x 13 tyres for years but when I was doing a series alongside the BTCC I had the opportunity to do a fair bit of testing with Avon who put me on the crossplies that were being used on the front of FF at the time but were lower profile.
In the end we did get it to do similar times but it took a lot of experimenting and testing (and I mean a lot !) with camber/caster/spring rates so it's not all plain sailing with just fitting a set on the car IMHO
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Old 21 Jan 2014, 09:48 (Ref:3356576)   #41
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Fellas, this is all great stuff…

I hear exactly what you are saying Peter and Gordon and it makes a great deal of sense. The truth is that there are no tyres available any more that are available in the sizes we need. The construction type for heavier cars (touring) and period bias nature are available, but not in our sizes until you get to 15 inch and apparently some very small size 13 inch. Great for those who have the option… on this are their any Group 1 cars with 15 inch rims homologated?

This therefore leaves us with trying to find something that is suitable that is a sensible substitute. I agree with you Peter in that finding the exact size is probably the least of our issues, the construction is more concerning. I am told a touring car slick tyre is of a 6 ply construction to cope with the weight and enable a stiffer tyre wall. With only a 2 ply (single seater tyre) being currently available there are obvious concerns of how to get the tyre to work on a touring car, the tyre wall deforming is obviously the greatest of these. However, there is a potential suspicion that maybe the period tyres were equally only a 2 ply as the Dunlop recommended tyre pressures were pretty high. There is some period documented evidence (Dunlop fact sheets) that show these.

This is why we are going to cut an old period Dunlop slick down (I have several examples of the period Dunlops) and see as to its construction. If they are 2 ply (a possibility, but unlikely I think) then were in the right area for period correctness and we are then just playing with the labour of getting it to work. If of course it is 6 ply and much stiffer it may spell the end to trying slicks for the time being as no 6 ply are available.

Ultimately what I'd like to see is that if we cannot get a slick tyre that is currently available to safely operate then I'd like to see an acceptance by the organisers and growing European movement that is Historic Group 1 that we can use a tyre that is as near as dammit to the performance of the period slick, which in my mind is the Toyo R888 or Yoko AO48. Essentially and as far as I understand it these tyres are of the correct construction, but simply have modern looking treads cut into them and are the nearest thing (in construction and lap time) to the slick we would otherwise be running. However, I fear that there would be outcry that they are not period (due to the tread patterns and not available in period) and we would therefore be pushed back to the Dunlop D84J which are in my mind little more than a road tyre of 1970's design.

There is obviously a view that would suggest that if we are all on the same tyre, what does it matter? I agree, it probably doesn't, but in the interests of trying to allow the cars to run closer to the intensity of lap time that they did in period it would seem a correct thing to do. Plus also if we are to be running with Group 2 and Group A it would seem to at least be kinder to us to be running a little closer to them than even further away than we are at present.
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Old 21 Jan 2014, 12:00 (Ref:3356637)   #42
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Fellas, this is all great stuff…

I hear exactly what you are saying Peter and Gordon and it makes a great deal of sense. The truth is that there are no tyres available any more that are available in the sizes we need. The construction type for heavier cars (touring) and period bias nature are available, but not in our sizes until you get to 15 inch and apparently some very small size 13 inch. Great for those who have the option… on this are their any Group 1 cars with 15 inch rims homologated?
Yup. But that is my point, some of us will be able to obtain a slick tyre quite easily and as, in my case, I won't have any reference data, then using a slick, or a Toyo will make little difference.

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This therefore leaves us with trying to find something that is suitable that is a sensible substitute. I agree with you Peter in that finding the exact size is probably the least of our issues, the construction is more concerning. I am told a touring car slick tyre is of a 6 ply construction to cope with the weight and enable a stiffer tyre wall. With only a 2 ply (single seater tyre) being currently available there are obvious concerns of how to get the tyre to work on a touring car, the tyre wall deforming is obviously the greatest of these. However, there is a potential suspicion that maybe the period tyres were equally only a 2 ply as the Dunlop recommended tyre pressures were pretty high. There is some period documented evidence (Dunlop fact sheets) that show these.
My car ran Goodyears which are no longer available.

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This is why we are going to cut an old period Dunlop slick down (I have several examples of the period Dunlops) and see as to its construction. If they are 2 ply (a possibility, but unlikely I think) then were in the right area for period correctness and we are then just playing with the labour of getting it to work. If of course it is 6 ply and much stiffer it may spell the end to trying slicks for the time being as no 6 ply are available.

Ultimately what I'd like to see is that if we cannot get a slick tyre that is currently available to safely operate then I'd like to see an acceptance by the organisers and growing European movement that is Historic Group 1 that we can use a tyre that is as near as dammit to the performance of the period slick, which in my mind is the Toyo R888 or Yoko AO48. Essentially and as far as I understand it these tyres are of the correct construction, but simply have modern looking treads cut into them and are the nearest thing (in construction and lap time) to the slick we would otherwise be running. However, I fear that there would be outcry that they are not period (due to the tread patterns and not available in period) and we would therefore be pushed back to the Dunlop D84J which are in my mind little more than a road tyre of 1970's design.
This is my point too.

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There is obviously a view that would suggest that if we are all on the same tyre, what does it matter? I agree, it probably doesn't, but in the interests of trying to allow the cars to run closer to the intensity of lap time that they did in period it would seem a correct thing to do. Plus also if we are to be running with Group 2 and Group A it would seem to at least be kinder to us to be running a little closer to them than even further away than we are at present.
Do the Groups 2 and A cars run on period correct construction or are they running modern slicks? I agree that it would be great to run the correct tyre but the costs of doing so may well serve to reduce the grids. As much as I'd love to run slicks, I think if we all accept that Group 1 runs on the Toyo or Yoko, we can concentrate on filling the grids to the extent that we could achieve the necessary entries to run our own races rather than as a class.
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Old 21 Jan 2014, 12:42 (Ref:3356662)   #43
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Do the Groups 2 and A cars run on period correct construction or are they running modern slicks? I agree that it would be great to run the correct tyre but the costs of doing so may well serve to reduce the grids. As much as I'd love to run slicks, I think if we all accept that Group 1 runs on the Toyo or Yoko, we can concentrate on filling the grids to the extent that we could achieve the necessary entries to run our own races rather than as a class.
Agreed Peter… the big but is will everyone agree that we can run Toyos/Yokos? I think the owner/driver (including myself) will be content to go this route, but it's those who make the decisions that we need to convince. My research into the use of slicks is purely motivated by the potential that we won't actually manage to achieve a common agreement to use Toyo/Yoko tyres (I appreciate that is somewhat negative thinking), but ultimately the next best option (in my mind at least) is to see if we can get the current available slicks to work and equal, perhaps improve on the Toyo/Yoko option. The point being there could be little argument to using slicks if they were used in period if Toyo/Yoko are perceived as modern.

The downside to which you and Gordon have alluded… slicks may well be the correct type of tyre to use, but they will probably be more expensive and will take many hours of suspension tweaks and set up development to get them to work in positive way. That's if we can get them to work at all! It is for these reasons that I think the research is both interesting and possibly necessary.
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Old 21 Jan 2014, 12:55 (Ref:3356671)   #44
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Agreed Peter… the big but is will everyone agree that we can run Toyos/Yokos? I think the owner/driver (including myself) will be content to go this route, but it's those who make the decisions that we need to convince. My research into the use of slicks is purely motivated by the potential that we won't actually manage to achieve a common agreement to use Toyo/Yoko tyres (I appreciate that is somewhat negative thinking), but ultimately the next best option (in my mind at least) is to see if we can get the current available slicks to work and equal, perhaps improve on the Toyo/Yoko option. The point being there could be little argument to using slicks if they were used in period if Toyo/Yoko are perceived as modern.
Well as I said it matters little to me at present because I'm starting from a clean sheet anyway. If the point is just slick tyres then there are other suppliers beyond Avon who can probably assist but that would mean modern construction. I applaud your efforts and wish you luck but ultimately we'll never please all the people all the time so the Toyo/Yoko route would probably be best.

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The downside to which you and Gordon have alluded… slicks may well be the correct type of tyre to use, but they will probably be more expensive and will take many hours of suspension tweaks and set up development to get them to work in positive way. That's if we can get them to work at all! It is for these reasons that I think the research is both interesting and possibly necessary.
Bearing in mind the original teams had serious wonga and time to play with, I think in the interests of amateur sport and grid sizes tyres need to be readily available, relatively economic and represent the closest performance to the originals, thus Dunlop D84s would not fit that criteria whereas Toyos and Yokos do.

I'll watch the developments with interest.
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Old 21 Jan 2014, 13:25 (Ref:3356685)   #45
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Old 21 Jan 2014, 13:41 (Ref:3356696)   #46
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Just to play devils advocate for a minute, I understand why you may wish to run on slicks/ wets etc or treaded tyres as originally allowed, but surely the tyres that are available now, whether slicks or treaded, will not be the same construction and compound as those used back in the day, so why not allow the use of Yoko A048 or Toyo 888s etc? Not period, I know but probably cheaper (although I guess that if you have the budget for running these sorts of cars it may not be over stressed by tyre issues?)
The main issue for a "regulations writer" is that a Yoko A048 or Toyo 888s is that they do not comply with the period "thread" and for Yoko I'm not very sure of the compound as they seems to be quite soft.

We do use Avon CR6ZZ and the tyre is a soft compound compared to a Dunlop historic, Avon slicks are not very soft but kind of and the Avon "Historic All Weather" is basically the slick but with a tread of the period.

But why don't you look at Michelin ? Maybe they have the slick for you ?

I think the main word has to be "period tread" then construction is a different thing and that has more to do with testing and setting up your car to suite the tyres.
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Old 21 Jan 2014, 14:04 (Ref:3356701)   #47
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If the tread is the only criteria then modern construction slicks will apply. No need to use Avons if Michelin, Dunlop et al have a current tyre.
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Old 21 Jan 2014, 15:45 (Ref:3356718)   #48
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If the tread is the only criteria then modern construction slicks will apply. No need to use Avons if Michelin, Dunlop et al have a current tyre.
I suppose that was partly my point, Peter. But modern slicks will probably generate more grip (hardly period, seeing as that seems to matter) and hence put more stress on the cars and ramp up costs.

As a slight aside but hopefully a relevant example, the PCGB series switched to Pirelli slicks this year, having used Michelin List 1B tyres for several years. Lap times fell, but the tyres were "off" after one race to the tune of a second a lap, so some of the front half of the grid were buying a new set of tyres for each meeting at £1K a go. Set up was crucial and "old" tyres had handling impacts so some of the front running guys were also testing on new tyres. The stress on components meant that many were needing new brake discs at every meeting too.

In contrast a set of Dunlop Dirrezzas on the same car will probably last half a season and so will the brake components etc.

I accept I am not comparing like with like by looking at Group 1 cars against 996 and 968 or Boxster and different manufacturers will have slicks with different characteristics but unless you are going to have batches of tyres made that are to 1970s technology and compounds then you will not be able to replicate the 1970s tyre performance so why not accept that and run on a freely available tyre that does not over stress components.
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Old 21 Jan 2014, 16:33 (Ref:3356736)   #49
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Equally ZZs are pretty expensive and not really suitable for cars that ran on slicks. It really comes down to the simple matter of nominating a tyre or tyres that are; suitable for the majority of the cars; and, that are readily obtainable. Trying to re create the actual tyres will be prohibitive for many and won't actually achieve anything but small grids.

I would love to run slicks but if others can't at a reasonable price then there's little point. Rather be sensible and run a modern competition tyre irrespective of tread pattern.
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Old 21 Jan 2014, 17:06 (Ref:3356746)   #50
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My ten penneth-

I don't like using non-period tyres.

I do like to have an even playing field.

A lot of historic series that run slicks specify Avon.

As you can't have adjustable dampers, adjustable ride height, adjustable camber etc on a Gp1 car, there can't be that many hours to spend setting it up for particular tyres.

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