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Old 30 May 2014, 18:45 (Ref:3412823)   #1
r3my
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Why no Audi in GT at Le Mans?

This is something I've been wondering for awhile. Audi has a fairly big presence in GT racing around the world. For awhile I though they didn't run a GT team at Le Mans because of the P1 team. But with Porsche fielding a P1 and GTE Pro team this year at Le Mans, why doesn't Audi? I know they don't have any teams in the WEC or ELMS, but not all teams for Le Mans come from the WEC or the ELMS. A few of the teams run in the Blancpain Series. Audi has 3 teams they could pull from in the Blancpain series to run at Le Mans. I do know that the Blancpain teams are customer teams, and customer teams don't always have the resources, money, or time to run at Le Mans. But Like Team Manthey, they have factory support from Porsche. If a team were to go to Le Mans with a R8, surely the factory would throw some effort their way. The only other reason I can come up with is that VAG already has a factory backed team in GTE with Team Manthey, but they have two P1 teams, why not two GTE teams?

This is more curiosity than anything else. Was hoping the people here could shed some light on it for me.
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Old 30 May 2014, 18:57 (Ref:3412829)   #2
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Different rules. The Audi doesn't technically comply with GTE, although I'm sure they could get a waiver for pretty much anything these days.

They recently made a daft decision not to adopt something akin to GT3 at Le Mans though, so I don't think it's likely in the short term.

So no GT3 equals no Audi. That rhymes.
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Old 30 May 2014, 19:15 (Ref:3412838)   #3
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I think the biggest reason VAG has gone ahead with the Porsche P1 program has to do with the imperfect "EoT" balancing of diesel and gasoline fuel technologies in that class.

By fielding teams in both the diesel and gasoline categories, VAG has a strategic advantage regardless of which direction the EoT balance ends up swaying. There is no such benefit to running two seperate teams in GTE.
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Old 30 May 2014, 19:17 (Ref:3412839)   #4
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Audi has been successful basically everywhere they've participated...group B, Pike's Peak, TransAM (even to the point they were indirectly told to leave), IMSA GTO, DTM, German ST etc..

They could easily make a GTE version of the R8 with a waiver. But my opinion is, they just don't feel any need to do it. They're more than satisfied with what they have at the moment. They've conquered Le Mans since 2000. Only Peugeot could challenge them. Bentley was actually a badge-engineered Audi R8 which benefited from closed cockpit engine regulations.
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Old 30 May 2014, 19:17 (Ref:3412840)   #5
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There is no Audi that can be run in GTE. They'd have to develop a new car first.
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Old 30 May 2014, 19:20 (Ref:3412844)   #6
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There is no Audi that can be run in GTE. They'd have to develop a new car first.
That's not actually a problem as long as Viper runs in GTE.
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Old 30 May 2014, 19:31 (Ref:3412848)   #7
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And Z4... in fact in all probablity the only model that actually corresponds with the regulations is the 458 (after the width waiver was excused by integrating it to the actual regs that is)

Don't know about C7.R yet (it ZR1 predecesor sure was loaded with waivers too) but since no one cares anymore it's just the same not to comply with the 'regs'

R8 GT3 could be transformed into GTE just as well by slapping GTE legals to the side and making some cosmetic appearance modifications to make it look like they tried. I guess Audi doesn't just wanna bother

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Old 30 May 2014, 19:39 (Ref:3412851)   #8
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And Z4... in fact in all probablity the only model that actually corresponds with the regulations is the 458 (after the width waiver was excused by integrating it to the actual regs that is)
Yeah, like that. Basically I find this 'why model X does not compete in class Y' pointless. I'm happy with the fact that some cars compete everywhere they're allowed and some cars don't. That makes some difference between different series.

I like it when Mercedes SLS is eligible only in Blancpain and lower leagues (plus N24 and some other 24 or 12 hour races). So why not SLS GTE? Or SLS Grand-AM? Well, I couldn't care less. I'm happy with the GT3 machine which sounds like a fart. (or single-cylinder four-stroke dirt bike)

And then, Porsche has a different philosophy. Basically they have an eligible vehicle in every class. But that's their philosophy. Period. But Bentley GTE/GT3/Grand AM/Cup...oh, give me a break.

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Old 30 May 2014, 19:59 (Ref:3412864)   #9
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Viper has an engine that was 'too big' but that was only put in place when Corvette dropped GT1! So whats a GTE? The best bet is for the ACO to allow 'modified' GT3's in the future in some form.
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Old 30 May 2014, 20:01 (Ref:3412868)   #10
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With the loads of waivers teams use.. especially for the Z4, I doubt Audi would have a problem converting a GT3 R8 to GTE specs. They 'dumbed' down the R8 LMS Ultra for Grand-Am, so slapping on some legality stuff and then BoP shouldn't be a problem for GTE. But the Grand-Am R8 was for the American market. The only other R8's that were running in America were in the Pirelli World Challenge. For my area/cable company it's listed as 'Auto Racing' and I think it comes on NBCSN a few days after the actual race occurs, and usually not in a prime time spot. So unless you specifically went looking for it online or in the TV guide, most people won't see it.

@BudLightJaguar, I believe you may be right. Seeing as they have basically won everything they've entered an R8 in, they probably just don't see a reason to make a one off car for one race a year. They don't run GT teams in ELMS or WEC, and I don't think they ever have. They have the European market with the Blancpain Series, and the American market with TUSCC. And like most companies, I'm sure Audi races their cars to sell their cars.
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Old 30 May 2014, 20:05 (Ref:3412873)   #11
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Why no Audi in GT at Le Mans?

Because audi is already involved with the r18 program, and beyond that audi sells a lot of R8 lms and spare parts to customers. Forget to say that GT3 are not allowed at le mans
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Old 30 May 2014, 20:33 (Ref:3412896)   #12
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Since Grand-AM GT was mentioned, don't forget that Grand AM GT in the past was actually a combination of two classes. First of all there was European GT3-style cars like Ferrari 458 which was a GT3 car sans ABS and TCS plus stiffer roll cage and with lower rpm limit. And secondly there were American tube frame cars like Mazda RX8 (lovely sound btw) which were not eligible with GT3 regulations by any means.
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Old 30 May 2014, 20:58 (Ref:3412909)   #13
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The old Grand-Am (when the RX-8's ran) was a hodgepodge of BMW M6's (later the M3), Porsche GT3 Cup Cars, Corvettes (not sure of their specific class), Mazda RX8's, and Camaros. None of which (besides the GT3 Cup cars) could run in another series. It was literally here's your guidelines.. let's go racing. Which made for some very entertaining racing, and it was different from the norm of GT2/GT3 spec cars.

Audi made a version of their GT3 R8 for Grand-Am, but that was to grab the American market. Dr Ulrich and the Head of Audi North America openly said it was because Audi didn't have a racing presence in North America like Porsche, Mazda, BMW, or Chevrolet did. So they brought over factory guys and ran 4 Audi R8's in Daytona and finished first and second and would have swept the podium if the third audi hadn't run out of gas on the last lap.

So with all of that, I think Audi races to sell cars. And if that's the case, they don't need to race at Le Mans in GT since they get so much publicity and TV time with the R18's.
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Old 30 May 2014, 21:29 (Ref:3412919)   #14
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Audi made a version of their GT3 R8 for Grand-Am, but that was to grab the American market. Dr Ulrich and the Head of Audi North America openly said it was because Audi didn't have a racing presence in North America like Porsche, Mazda, BMW, or Chevrolet did.


Yup, even the early colour theme was stars and stripes. And it perfectly suited for Audi. Could Mercedes have done it with SLS Grand-AM? Don't think so. Audi guys are sophisticated but they can switch to very primitive form if they want. Could Lamborghini have done it? No, too limited market. Bent....NO!NO!NO!
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Old 30 May 2014, 22:22 (Ref:3412939)   #15
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Yup, even the early colour theme was stars and stripes. And it perfectly suited for Audi. Could Mercedes have done it with SLS Grand-AM? Don't think so. Audi guys are sophisticated but they can switch to very primitive form if they want. Could Lamborghini have done it? No, too limited market. Bent....NO!NO!NO!
Mercedes has a car in the Pirelli World Challenge, but it's by no means a Grand-Am spec car. For the most part, you don't see too many Mercedes racers outside of Europe. Lamborghini had a car in the ALMS for a few races. It was run by West Racing and was supposed to be the Yokohama car like The number 17 Porsche is for Falken. I don't know what happened, but it just disappeared in the middle of the season. I highly doubt we'll see the Bentley outside of Europe, let alone the Blancpain series. To me, the Continental is a cool luxury car.. not a race car.

The only companies that made an effort for Grand-Am were Chevy, Ferrari, Audi, and Mazda. Porsche just imported the GT3 Cup cars over, and Ford would run with the Mustang at Daytona with private teams once in a blue moon. They were just talking about this on the TUSCC qualifying in Detroit. Companies want GT3 spec cars because they're closer to the cars they sell at dealerships. That's more or less what Grand-Am was.. it was stock cars with roll cages and endurance parts installed. But it didn't get the press or coverage like the factory backed GT3/GT2 series did.
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Old 30 May 2014, 22:30 (Ref:3412943)   #16
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Dyson is debuting the Bentley at Road America in PWC.
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Old 30 May 2014, 22:32 (Ref:3412945)   #17
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I knew Dyson was helping M-Sport run the car.. didn't know they had intentions of bringing it over here.
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Old 31 May 2014, 00:48 (Ref:3412971)   #18
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I knew Dyson was helping M-Sport run the car.. didn't know they had intentions of bringing it over here.
Yup. Going to be strong car I think.
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Old 31 May 2014, 00:51 (Ref:3412973)   #19
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M-Sport was running it themselves, Dyson is the US arm of Bentley's racing efforts.
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Old 31 May 2014, 03:48 (Ref:3413006)   #20
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The only companies that made an effort for Grand-Am were Chevy, Ferrari, Audi, and Mazda. Porsche just imported the GT3 Cup cars over, and Ford would run with the Mustang at Daytona with private teams once in a blue moon. They were just talking about this on the TUSCC qualifying in Detroit. Companies want GT3 spec cars because they're closer to the cars they sell at dealerships. That's more or less what Grand-Am was.. it was stock cars with roll cages and endurance parts installed. But it didn't get the press or coverage like the factory backed GT3/GT2 series did.

I don't think it's fair for you to say Porsche didn't put any effort in it.

The RX 8 and Turner M3 were built on Riley tube frame chassis. The RX 8s also had three rotor engines instead of two rotors like the production models. Not "stock cars with roll cages and endurance parts" as you describe.

If you were Porsche and you were evaluating building a car specifically for Grand Am rules why would you green-light the project when you would be competing against tube frame silhouette cars that resembled far less capable, prestigious, and valuable road cars?

I'm sure some casual fans bought RX 8s because they would hear one of those glorious rotary engines in a car that was neck to neck with a GT3 Cup. They probably thought that the 911 must be terrible because they couldn't outrun a Mazda that probably cost 20% of a GT3 and that the Mazda was a tremendous value. Grand Am didn't deserve Porsche's blessing.
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Old 31 May 2014, 04:31 (Ref:3413015)   #21
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I don't think it's fair for you to say Porsche didn't put any effort in it.

The RX 8 and Turner M3 were built on Riley tube frame chassis. The RX 8s also had three rotor engines instead of two rotors like the production models. Not "stock cars with roll cages and endurance parts" as you describe.

If you were Porsche and you were evaluating building a car specifically for Grand Am rules why would you green-light the project when you would be competing against tube frame silhouette cars that resembled far less capable, prestigious, and valuable road cars?

I'm sure some casual fans bought RX 8s because they would hear one of those glorious rotary engines in a car that was neck to neck with a GT3 Cup. They probably thought that the 911 must be terrible because they couldn't outrun a Mazda that probably cost 20% of a GT3 and that the Mazda was a tremendous value. Grand Am didn't deserve Porsche's blessing.
+1
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Old 31 May 2014, 10:31 (Ref:3413085)   #22
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And Z4... in fact in all probablity the only model that actually corresponds with the regulations is the 458 (after the width waiver was excused by integrating it to the actual regs that is)
Apparently the Lotus Evora GTE was build to the regulations, it didn't need any waivers. But the engine was crap, which meant the results were crap. The 'factory' team only used it for 1 year in WEC. Alex Job Racing used it the year after in ALMS and the factory team competed with it in the International GT Open.

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I like it when Mercedes SLS is eligible only in Blancpain and lower leagues (plus N24 and some other 24 or 12 hour races). So why not SLS GTE? Or SLS Grand-AM? Well, I couldn't care less. I'm happy with the GT3 machine which sounds like a fart.
In the beginning of the year HTP Motorsport said they might bring a Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG GT3 to the TUSC GTD class later in the year. No idea what the current state of their plan is.

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Could Lamborghini have done it? No, too limited market. Bent....NO!NO!NO!
The Lamborghini GT3's aren't made by Lamborghini. They're made by Reiter Engineering, a privateer. Only since last year Lamborghini is providing some (extra) support. Before last year it was basicly all up to Reiter if they want to run their cars in other series/markets. Lamborghini's are competing in PWC this year though.
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Old 31 May 2014, 11:03 (Ref:3413100)   #23
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I cannot imagine M-Sport not hoping to sell quite a few Bentley's, they need every penny they can get.

Since the Bentley did so well in Silverstone, I'm betting my pants M-Sport is looking forward to expanding their customer program and this means that we might see Bentleys anywhere someone decides to buy and race it.
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Old 31 May 2014, 11:11 (Ref:3413103)   #24
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If the Bentley continues it's winning ways I can see M Sport selling a few. I wouldn't be too worried about that.
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Old 31 May 2014, 11:41 (Ref:3413116)   #25
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I don't think it's fair for you to say Porsche didn't put any effort in it.

The RX 8 and Turner M3 were built on Riley tube frame chassis. The RX 8s also had three rotor engines instead of two rotors like the production models. Not "stock cars with roll cages and endurance parts" as you describe.
"stock cars with roll cages and endurance parts" actually only really applied to the Porsche, with the Cup version being built on the regular production line.
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