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Old 28 May 2018, 17:03 (Ref:3825296)   #1
Biscuits In A Red Bull
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Does racing need fixing?

So, following many drivers complaining that they had a particularly unexciting Monaco Grand Prix, and having seen many fans complain about the quality of racing in the Indianapolis 500, I shall ask the question on everyone's lips. Does racing need fixing?

My answer would be yes, but not necessarily in the way you'd expect. However, I would quite like to hear what you wonderful people have to say on this matter. Does racing need fixing? Do attempts to fix racing make it better or worse? Do gimmicks aid the spectacle or detract from it? Do regulations designed to make racing closer/more unpredictable deprive the sport of a "pure meritocracy," as seen in athletics?

What does fixing racing even mean? What does fixed racing even look like?

Or do we have to live with the fact that for every 2018 Chinese Grand Prix there is a 2018 Monaco Grand Prix that comes with it?

PS I actually enjoyed Monaco...
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Old 29 May 2018, 17:41 (Ref:3825496)   #2
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I have to say I did too. I only nodded off briefly a couple of times, while in many GPs, my wife has to nudge me because my snoring is frightening the cat......

For my money, 'fixing' (no I don't really know what that means either) in terms of improving the spectacle rarely works, as those who decide on the fix have to bow to too many vested interests. We all know that DRS should be the first thing to go and get back to mechanical rather than aero grip. But I guess that's not going to happen.
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Old 29 May 2018, 17:47 (Ref:3825498)   #3
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I saw some footage from the Indy 500 and it seemed to me that there was quite a lot of racing going on.

Monaco was never going to be anything more than a snooze fest once they all got away with no incidents at the start. But what made it interesting was knowing that the race leader was hobbled. DRS and any false power surges are not racing, so sometimes races will be boring. Why fix it though because it ain't broke?
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Old 29 May 2018, 19:31 (Ref:3825523)   #4
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Certainly the aftermath of virtually any Monaco GP isn't ever going to be a reliable basis upon which to identify fixes. Although if it were up to me, I'd certainly dump DRS and the astonishingly bananas grid penalties....
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Old 29 May 2018, 19:40 (Ref:3825530)   #5
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I saw some footage from the Indy 500 and it seemed to me that there was quite a lot of racing going on.
Particularly around the vicinity of Alexander Rossi... my jaw genuinely dropped a couple of times on Sunday, these were scary moves!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTY3utkFwZQ
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Old 29 May 2018, 19:44 (Ref:3825532)   #6
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Do you mean racing? Or F1? These are very different things.
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Old 30 May 2018, 02:36 (Ref:3825576)   #7
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Well, a lot of the complaints about F1 are echoed for other top-line series also; it's usually just a difference of degrees in terms of the frequency and intensity of the complaints.
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Old 30 May 2018, 04:08 (Ref:3825585)   #8
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The evidence from a recent Autosport survey suggests F1 does need fixing...
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Old 30 May 2018, 07:13 (Ref:3825600)   #9
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I still need to see proof that the races were actually better overall in years past. We usually ony remember the good ones and blank out the 75% that sucked. Williams >1s a lap advantage anyone in the 90s?

The main difference was that due to unreliability there was more of a mix up on the grid than today, F1 themselves put that away by requiring the manufacturers to make the cars bulletproof with the engine regs.

Also, the Autosport poll is likely biased because the majority of the readers were (wild guess on my side) socialized with F1 in the 90s and therefore have rose tinted glasses.
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Old 30 May 2018, 07:20 (Ref:3825601)   #10
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It depends on who's watching. The strict petrol head wants racing as pure as possible whereas the casual fan wants action which usually means crashes.

Thing is though that there is motorsport that caters to all already. Problem is too many think that the only motorsport that exists is F1 with Le Mans and the Indy 500 once a year.

Agree with the people who say that the racing in F1 wasn't all that great in the past. Polls are meaningless in the main. People say everything was better in the past but the past is now for the future...
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Old 30 May 2018, 10:50 (Ref:3825620)   #11
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I think we should leave it for who is watching. We enjoy it how it should be, while no doubt others will be drawn by crashes or great overtakes. But there's so much motorsport to choose from. The main one is F1, while I'm not sure Le Mans is that well known and the Indy 500 is mostly for Americans. F1 racing wasn't always that great, but you knew you were watching a pure sporting contest. It's interesting to hear what the fans want. There are so many great memories of F1 in the past and we should have some in the future too
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Old 30 May 2018, 10:59 (Ref:3825623)   #12
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Not entirely certain that Le Mans and the Indy 500 are little known. Le Mans has traditionally attracted many thousands of British fans annually not to mention the other nationalities that swarm there in June. Likewise Indy has also attracted it's fair share of fans.

But racing has many facets as I pointed out in another thread. It's not just overtaking, nor is it outright speed. It's all about competition and how the drivers handle it.

I suspect that the reason why Formula 1 and a number of other categories, has lost its shine is because it's all technology and not driving skill. This of course is how you get drivers like Verstappen coming on and being immediately on tbe pace.
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Old 30 May 2018, 12:05 (Ref:3825635)   #13
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What is wrong with F1 ? From the perspective of somebody who saw his first F1 race in 1971 it is this -



- the fact that it has become a sport designed for and influenced by TV

- that most people who watch F1 don't know very much , if anything , about live motorsport - in all its many disciplines

- the budgets are grotesque- half a billlion quid for cars which can't overtake each other

- because races are decided on who has best aero guy and best pit stop algorithms, not the best driver. F1 is about drivers , LMP is about cars

- because manufacturers and teams have far , far too much influence on the rules . They should be consultees at most

- because F1 lives in such a self important bubble that it doesn't notice that the cars look rubbish, weigh at least 40% too much , sound ghastly and rely on silly gimmicks like DRS and tyres which wear out in five minutes (pretty green , huh ?) to overtake



I could go on ...
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Old 30 May 2018, 13:51 (Ref:3825650)   #14
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There are quite a few things wrong with F1. But it’s pointless comparing it from another era. Of course the TV product is great, but the racing can be good enough without it being made for TV

Not sure if it is influenced by people who aren’t interested in F1, there are still plenty of F1 fans with their views.

Budgets will always be high, but why so much aero? It was a BIG mistake to increase downforce. Cars will always play a part though, as will strategy. F1 should be about best drivers and cars, not like other series
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Old 30 May 2018, 14:27 (Ref:3825654)   #15
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But racing has many facets as I pointed out in another thread. It's not just overtaking, nor is it outright speed. It's all about competition and how the drivers handle it.
i would say its all about improving the competition for me. and not just the level of competition among the top teams but rules/changes aimed at narrowing the gap throughout the field are needed.

the ability to spend money is not the sporting competition i want to see (although it must be said that this is not just an F1 or racing problem but something that really does affect all major league sports these days)

in that respect i am probably more willing than others to accept some of the 'gimmicky' rules (DRS, multiple tire compounds) particularity because wholesale and profound changes are not easy to implement and some things like a proper budget cap may even be functionally impossible to implement.
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Old 30 May 2018, 17:04 (Ref:3825683)   #16
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The foundations for developing a truly competitive grid of cars, across F1 and LMP1, lies in how the FIA and ACO allow the global car manufacturers to participate. For sure they bring huge kudos to any championship, but they also bring with them the potential to annihilate all opposition and then leave the sport at the time of their choosing. Whilst competing, they'll want to demonstrate their latest technology (hybrids at the moment), use their full reservoir of resources and of course spend, spend, spend. Teams like McLaren, Williams, Sauber, Ginetta, Rebellion etc have zero chance of competing with such juggernauts.
In my view, any global car manufacturer who wishes to compete directly in a Championship (eg. Mercedes,Toyota,Renault etc) must also make their product available for any non works team to purchase/lease. The cost/lease price must be capped and published. If manufacturers elect to supply engines only, then I don't think such punitive measures are necessary.
What we can't have is a full blown MercedesBenz F1 team racing against a Sauber for example or a Works Toyota Hybrid against a Rebellion - Gibson.
If the global car makers want all the Brand and commercial benefits associated with being "World Champions" then they must contribute accordingly.
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Old 30 May 2018, 17:12 (Ref:3825687)   #17
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I personally would love to see more teams on the grid in F1, but I don’t know how you could change LMP1. I think the FIA should be left up to it. At the end of the day the top teams will always be on top, but we should see the odd underdog up there. The fact that McLaren and Williams aren’t up there is due to wrong choices and finances.

I don’t think teams should be forced to share other parts, that should be up to them, but we do need more teams
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Old 30 May 2018, 19:34 (Ref:3825719)   #18
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I wouldn't be against allowing proper customer cars in F1.

As for manufacturers, it's their juice that makes having a World Championship commercially possible. So that's a tricky one.

As I pointed out elsewhere, there can be quite a range of aero efficiency, so downforce production in and of itself isn't the problem. The old turbo cars were making plenty of it in the '80s from those whacking great venturis sticking out the back. And on that note, it's interesting, because you saw the frontal area really shrink from 1983 through '87, as power levels shot up, and the penalty of that extra drag became less justifiable.

I don't love the looks of the current cars by any stretch, but I also know we're never going to see a car as beautiful as the Maserati 250F again. We're never going to see a car as perfectly trim and minimal as a BRM P261 or 1967 Lotus 49 again. We're also never going to see a "modern-looking" F1 car as clean and aggressive-looking as the Lotus 79 again.

And as far as simple physical limitations, it would be nice for the cars to weigh less than the current ~1,600 lb, but I can't see that figure ever dropping below 1,200 lb (as a bare minimum, and still probably somewhat unrealistic) again. Even the Lotus 33 weighed 994 lb, while 60% of 1,600 is 960.

For driver protection, there are going to be side pods, which means floor area, which means there necessarily has to be lift mitigation on the cars. There also has to be some amount of drag production at the rear for basic aerodynamic stability.

It won't make things "spectacular", I don't think, but opening up Ste. Devote, the chicane, and Anthony Nogues would help on-track competition at Monaco. (Essentially, give us back the 1973-75 layout, which is doable.)
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Old 30 May 2018, 20:16 (Ref:3825726)   #19
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I'm still firmly of the view that allowing Global Manufacturers to run their own teams, come and go as they please whilst spending the equivalent of a small country's GDP, will simply continue to produce what we have today.........a grid of 6 competitive state of the art cars surrounded by 14 make-weights.

The 70's,80's and 90's were definitely better than today's offering purley because manufacturers had little or no direct involvement. Sure they all supplied engines at various times but that was it.

(I know Renault launched their turbo era with their own team but they didn't stay for long and soon resorted back to engine supply only).
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Old 30 May 2018, 20:21 (Ref:3825727)   #20
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I think some customer cars will work. But are there enough manufacturers to go around? The top teams will want to stay on top.

The downforce levels are WAY too high. You look at the turbo 80s car, very clean, with not much downforce. And you had a good variety of shapes then and cars from the late 80s were some of the best ever. The Maserati 250F looks a bit ancient now. The cars from the 60s weren’t bad looking, especially the Lotuses or Loti of the time. The Lotus 79 looked out of place compared to the rest of the cars at the time

I think Monaco is alright how it is, no need to open it up, give it a few more barriers to make it interesting, even if shots of old Monaco are just as impressive
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Old 30 May 2018, 20:42 (Ref:3825733)   #21
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I view this topic as generally a rhetorical question. The question as put forward by the OP also doesn't explicitly focus on F1 (while I am sure most responses here will address it with an F1 focus... and I will be no different)

I think the answer is that yes... "Racing" (In general) it is always broken to at some level but also always getting better and worse at the same time. There are many level of participation and different series. Each one is never static and has period of high and lows. They are generally being constantly tweaked to try to adjust to a changing world and some get it right and others wrong.

The big question is that there are a few that seem to stand as the pinnacle for a particular style or type of racing. F1 for open wheels, LeMans for GT/Prototype endurance, etc. So for those, rough patches can be difficult as exceptions are high and failure is not acceptable.

Lots of factors to keep it fresh and exciting. World economics, technology trends, continuity and the right balance of respecting tradition and even (if we are focusing on auto racing) the role of the automobile in society (which seems to be on the decline). Lastly, I also broadly assume we are talking about commercially viable products. As much as it is a sport, it really is a business. That also makes it hard. Especially with respect to behemoths such as F1 which at this point probably exist just to keep itself alive. It exists purely of those on the inside of the monster shouting "feed me" to everyone on the outside.

No easy answers on how to ensure a monster like F1 moves forward like a well oiled and successful machine!

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Old 30 May 2018, 21:02 (Ref:3825743)   #22
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The cars broke a lot more in the '70s and '80s, which mixed things up. If the turbo cars hadn't kept blowing up, it would have been Ferrari, Renault, and Brabham BMW out in front of the other 20 cars throughout 1982. In 1983, it would have been Renault, Ferrari, and Alfa Romeo. You had smaller and larger teams back then too. You also had a huge presence with the Ford-Cosworth DFV, and Matra wasn't exactly lying down with their own V12 engine.

And honestly, F1 was in the doldrums, to an extent, in that era between the wingless cars and the mid '80s, and cars like the Lotus 97T. You had a few bright flashes with cars such as the Ferrari 312 T series, and the aforementioned Lotus 79. And you had a couple of major driver rivalries. They were memorable, yes, but both Hunt/Lauda and Villeneuve/Pironi turned fairly nasty.

I'm not sure what the answer is, but you're going to have a problem if the manufacturers decide they're not interested in making the marketing investment in F1 if they can't have a works team.

You may say the Maserati 250F looks "ancient", but a lot of the people clamoring for the "good old days" of less downforce, and whatever else, lust after that look. It's the same with Indy Cars, with those calling for the same things generally harking back to when it was just the roadsters at the Speedway.

Yes, the Lotus 79 was different from the other cars of 1978; the closest were probably the Brabham BT46 Alfa Romeo and the Ferrari 312 T3. It's ironic though that you say that, because actual innovation and differentiation is going to lead to some "strange" and "out-of-place" cars in terms of appearance.

The '80s cars made a fair bit of downforce; it's just that it was made more cleanly. The FIA freaked out at various points, and made it continually harder to make it in an efficient manner, so wake turbulence increased. You won't get the same variety of shapes now as then, because you have computers, but more importantly, you have the engineers who now possess a base of knowledge that is simply astronomical in its refinement. And that last word is the key; we have refined and optimized the "craft" so much more in the last 30 years than designers back then could have possibly imagined.

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Old 30 May 2018, 21:22 (Ref:3825749)   #23
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Sometimes in the 70s and 80s it was survival of the fittest, as sometimes cars could blow up like that. Some cars in 82 weren’t quite prepared with their Turbo, like Renault, it was a shame Lotus didn’t have an established driver that year, as their car looked good. And no team was able to dominate the year after, which is a bit of a surprise, as usually major rule changes do that. But the DFV cars were good in their own right. In the mid 80s it was close among the top teams, Ferrari were usually up there and we had great drivers like Senna, Prost and Alboreto.

Maserati 250F I’ll admit is good looking enough, but it looks completely different from today’s car. It’s hard to find a single similarity between the cars of then and the cars of now.

The Lotus 79 seemed to catch everybody else out, not even Ferrari or Brabham were ready for them and the fan car was too clever for it’s own good

The 80s had very good shape, what a shame we couldn’t have kept aero that simple. Maybe there are a few difference with the noses on today’s F1 cars, but the rest of the cars mostly look the same
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Old 30 May 2018, 21:53 (Ref:3825753)   #24
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Another major change that came after the height of the old turbo era was the mandated shift in the stance of the cars. Requirements for driver leg protection moved the cockpit significantly rearward, fundamentally changing the proportions of the cars.

Yes. there really is no aesthetic comparison between the 1950s front-engined cars and modern F1 cars. I intentionally used different adjectives to describe each generation of car for that very reason.

As for drivers, yes, those guys were good. It's just strange, because you comparatively rarely hear the name of the one three-time champion all in the 1980s. Rosberg and Schekter don't generally enter the conversation a whole lot. Alan Jones? Who? I'd say that even Fittipaldi doesn't get the love or recognition that a number of the drivers from the '60s garner. Stewart is sort of an exception, but he was already racing successfully in F1 for about the latter half of the 1960s. That's what I was trying to get at; there's a whole generation in there that were certainly good drivers, but apart from Lauda really, and he returned in the mid '80s, how much attention do any of them get?

Last edited by Purist; 30 May 2018 at 22:04.
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Old 31 May 2018, 11:00 (Ref:3825840)   #25
jmlima
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jmlima should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
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the ability to spend money is not the sporting competition i want to see (although it must be said that this is not just an F1 or racing problem but something that really does affect all major league sports these days)
...

That's not going to change in F1 , or any other sports for that matter. The issue is that ownership of teams became essentially nothing other than a business venture. Where there are investors, there needs to be a return on equity. Where there needs to be a return on equity you want as much control over the possible variables as possible, in the case of sport, it means you need to outspend your rivals. In this respect, football is no different from f1. By and large, the way sports teams have been allowed to become businesses first and foremost, drove the sports series to turn into money making machines (just look at the complete rigging that is the champions league, which is done by the big, for the big)
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