'First Marshal at the Scene' training courses - where are they?

[Tim Neill]

Does anyone know where I can complete one of these courses and which clubs run them?

I sent my PRC off a couple of months ago for an upgrade, with required attendance and examining post chiefs' signatures, only to now learn that I need an MSA approved First Aid signature. St John Ambulance one day course 'First Aid at Work' plus HeartStart course apparently not acceptable.

Thanks, Tim

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by Tim Neill

Does anyone know where I can complete one of these courses and which clubs run them?

I sent my PRC off a couple of months ago for an upgrade, with required attendance and examining post chiefs' signatures, only to now learn that I need an MSA approved First Aid signature. St John Ambulance one day course 'First Aid at Work' plus HeartStart course apparently not acceptable.

Thanks, Tim

What are you upgrading to? Rescue? First aid training is a welcome addition to post duties but it's not a general requirement for ordinary post activity, nor a requirement for a standard upgrade.

[PabloTeK]

Originally Posted by numbersix

What are you upgrading to? Rescue? First aid training is a welcome addition to post duties but it's not a general requirement for ordinary post activity, nor a requirement for a standard upgrade.

Under the new scheme, there actually is a First Aid module (although not the same as the HSE course). MSA training days from most (if not all) clubs will probably include this as part of the training day.

[deley]

Originally Posted by numbersix

What are you upgrading to? Rescue? First aid training is a welcome addition to post duties but it's not a general requirement for ordinary post activity, nor a requirement for a standard upgrade.

Originally Posted by PabloTeK

Under the new scheme, there actually is a First Aid module (although not the same as the HSE course). MSA training days from most (if not all) clubs will probably include this as part of the training day.

Correct, there is now a "First Aid" (I think being referred to as First Marshal On Scene) module requirement for the Track to Experienced upgrade these days ..... although there was previously a requirement for training to have included "basic aid" for Track to Experienced upgrade so there should be something out there already.

I know there was work underway on the module - hopefully someone will pop in and clarify.

Dave

[Tim Neill]

It's an upgrade from Track to Experienced Marshal.

The annual training day at Brands Hatch (my 'home' track) doesn't offer this new module. Has anyone done this module anywhere?

[JimW]

Marshals Club training at Donington. (January most years.)

Jim

[numbersix]

I've obviously missed something here.

Where are the details of this new requirement anyone? Or is it like a Dan Brown novel where I've got to unravel strange clues left in the crypt of the MSA.

[Steve Fox]

Lydden had the "First Marshal on scene" module, not too far to go.
You could try contacting Richard Sneader as it was he that ran the module.

[deley]

Originally Posted by numbersix

I've obviously missed something here.

Where are the details of this new requirement anyone? Or is it like a Dan Brown novel where I've got to unravel strange clues left in the crypt of the MSA.

A Track to Experienced upgrade has included a requirement for training in "basic first aid" or "basic aid" for some time.

When the change to the modular approach came in at the start of 2012 "Basic First Aid" is a specific module required for Track to Experienced upgrades and is listed in the PRC and the information available on the MSA website. The "First Marshal on Scene" idea seems to be another term to cover the basic/first aid but within the marshalling context.

I think the issue is that it isn't clear whether the "standard MSA module" for that particular subject has ever been released or whether clubs have been continuining with whatever they did (or maybe didn't do) previously to cover the subject when it would (should) have been included within a wider training day.

The concept behind the modular approach was that the training modules were to be defined and each module had to be specifically signed for, with each module having a core set of material to ensure consistency in the content being taught irrespective of club/venue.

Unfortunately my experience of training days at different clubs shows that the concept hasn't made it through to implementation in many cases with clubs doing "their own thing".

Dave

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by deley

A Track to Experienced upgrade has included a requirement for training in "basic first aid" or "basic aid" for some time.

When the change to the modular approach came in at the start of 2012 "Basic First Aid" is a specific module required for Track to Experienced upgrades and is listed in the PRC and the information available on the MSA website. The "First Marshal on Scene" idea seems to be another term to cover the basic/first aid but within the marshalling context.

I think the issue is that it isn't clear whether the "standard MSA module" for that particular subject has ever been released or whether clubs have been continuining with whatever they did (or maybe didn't do) previously to cover the subject when it would (should) have been included within a wider training day.

The concept behind the modular approach was that the training modules were to be defined and each module had to be specifically signed for, with each module having a core set of material to ensure consistency in the content being taught irrespective of club/venue.

Unfortunately my experience of training days at different clubs shows that the concept hasn't made it through to implementation in many cases with clubs doing "their own thing".

Dave

Thank you, Dave. I think your last sentence covers it. I am now clarified.

I've been doing training since Stonehedge was a racetrack. Last year I did PC training at one track and Flag training at another. I knew "about it" because it's in the PRC but had never had specific training in that module. I hasten to add that I have had training in cardiac arrest procedures from BARC.

I will do a Dan Brown in the MSA crypt ("Infernal?" )

[Tim Neill]

Thank you for the comments and insight. Richard Sneader was actually my first port of call and the situation seems very opaque, up to each club and location to do its own thing.

I would be very surprised if the scope, depth and hands-on practice of any club's First Aid module matched the HSE-approved 'First Aid at Work' full day I completed. Why re-invent the wheel? Why not take advantage of this excellent course (which is run in most towns in the UK) and then fortify it with a small marshal-specific module?

[PabloTeK]

Originally Posted by Tim Neill

Thank you for the comments and insight. Richard Sneader was actually my first port of call and the situation seems very opaque, up to each club and location to do its own thing.

I would be very surprised if the scope, depth and hands-on practice of any club's First Aid module matched the HSE-approved 'First Aid at Work' full day I completed. Why re-invent the wheel? Why not take advantage of this excellent course (which is run in most towns in the UK) and then fortify it with a small marshal-specific module?

Rescue Units and medical cars tend to be a (very) short time away, so the course does not really need to cover in-depth details of first aid when a fully trained team with either a paramedic or doctor can show up within a minute or two.

That was my understanding anyway...

[Steve Fox]

I'm sure that Richard will be able to clarify the situation as it is my understanding that he is involved in the format of the module.
As a trained first aider I can say that the purpose of the FMOS module is not about first aid, the rescue units will be along all guns blazing in a very short period of time BUT is some instances those couple of minutes while rc is informed/race neutralised/rescue unit race to scene can mean the difference between life and death (or worse) and it is the required immediate intervention that is taught in this module, it is airway/breathing/circulation as opposed to which way up a triangular bandage goes.

[deadsquirrel]

Originally Posted by numbersix

I've obviously missed something here.

Where are the details of this new requirement anyone? Or is it like a Dan Brown novel where I've got to unravel strange clues left in the crypt of the MSA.

It's a 1 hour (ish) session held during a training day. As Jim says above, its certainly covered at the Donington days and has been for at least the last two years.

It's not a separate course, or anything like it.

All marshals are expected (I believe) now to train once every two years, ......

[numbersix]

Originally Posted by PabloTeK

Rescue Units and medical cars tend to be a (very) short time away, so the course does not really need to cover in-depth details of first aid when a fully trained team with either a paramedic or doctor can show up within a minute or two.

That was my understanding anyway...

But a "minute or two" can make a difference if someone's in cardiac arrest or choking! Also, at my last BARC training session I was advised that Post Chiefs now also have a duty of care towards spectators. Whether that was official or off the cuff I don't know, and a PC (and others) having some knowledge of resus. procedures during those valuable few minutes before the cavalry arrive is something that is more than useful.

Originally Posted by deadsquirrel

It's a 1 hour (ish) session held during a training day. As Jim says above, its certainly covered at the Donington days and has been for at least the last two years.

It's not a separate course, or anything like it.

All marshals are expected (I believe) now to train once every two years, ......

I've been doing Donny training since JimW had black hair! Specifically, the practical fire training is probably the best in the known universe and I was always keen to hear Dr Mark (? - forgotten his name - consultant anaesthetist at Leeds? Sheffield? Mad hair!) do his talk on keeping people alive after road accidents. I probably learned more about such things in the freezing cold of the pre-new-suite at Donny than anywhere else.

I'm not an XPC (involuntary shudder) but I would have expected PC's to have been advised if something was mandatory for an upgrade.

[Steven Humphrey]

This is a bit of a bone of contention for me! I have been ready to upgrade from track to experienced for 2 years now but none of the training days I've attended (2 SMT & 1 BMMC) have had this new module. In fact, I don't think it was even written. The really annoying thing is that I work for the ambulance service on emergency vehicles so kind of know what I'm doing

[Chris Hobson]

The FMOS module was completed last year thanks to the efforts of Richard Sneader and was approved by the MSA Medical panel. It is specifically for first on scene at a motorsport incident, so it not only covers the basic first aid but also the motorsport aspects. The module is based on the little leaflet given to most new marshals.

All clubs have the module, it is on the trainers dropbox and can be given at any time by any club - as long as the trainer is MSA approved.
I am sure a good number of people have other first aid qualifications (or higher), but the module is the one we would request all trainers to use.

I will raise this with the MSA to see if we can get the module delivered mid season - as with all the modules they do not have to be done at a specific training day - they can be given individually by MSA trainers whenever and wherever is most appropriate.

[Shelagh]

I know I should keep up and we do attend training days but aren't I glad I'm not working my way through the ranks now!

[The Fat Clerk]

I know, it seems very complicated.

[flying muppet]

Complicated?

Not really; just a lot better...

[Pitsmarion]

I'm in the same area and also looking for FMOS to complete my upgrade to Experienced Specialist, so if there's a mid-season course going close-by you can count me in as well.

Marion

[Tim Neill]

All clubs have the module, it is on the trainers dropbox and can be given at any time by any club - as long as the trainer is MSA approved ...

Well that's a clear statement - FMOS is available right now. All we need is for someone to establish how many people need it and then run it ...

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Tim Neill

Well that's a clear statement - FMOS is available right now. All we need is for someone to establish how many people need it and then run it ...

This will normally be offered as a module within training days. E.G. Donington and Oulton Park and others.

So if you still need that signature (or want a refresher or continuation training) just keep an eye out for the publicity and sign yourself up.

Regards

Jim

[Richard Sneader]

I will see if I can put something together for a in season training evening covering fmos. It will be in essex though and it may be short notice as I need to sort out time etc. I have a location so thats no issue with plenty of parking. I need to see what my diary will free up.
Watch this space.

[deley]

Originally Posted by JimW

This will normally be offered as a module within training days. E.G. Donington and Oulton Park and others.

So if you still need that signature (or want a refresher or continuation training) just keep an eye out for the publicity and sign yourself up.

Regards

Jim

I think the issue is that some Clubs haven't included it for whatever reason and, while individuals could travel the length and breadth of the country to track down "missing modules", surely this flies in the face of the MSA's desire to have consistency in marshal training to support their aim [It is essential that marshals can operate at whatever venue and for whichever club is running an event. The standardisation of training seeks to address this requirement].

Dave