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Old 28 Mar 2019, 00:54 (Ref:3893824)   #46
Richard Casto
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Originally Posted by ApexTurtle View Post
No need to be so defensive, I'm specifically saying I'm leaving it up to other people to pass the judgement.
Oh, I agree! Cheers

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Old 28 Mar 2019, 00:58 (Ref:3893825)   #47
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Judgement passed. Good reasoned point of view Richard.
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Old 28 Mar 2019, 12:08 (Ref:3893902)   #48
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I think that's indeed too optimistic! You make a very good point that points are not the entire story. So let me give my view on that. Maybe I have too long a memory but after winter testing and Gasly's random 4th place at Bahrain, there was talk of Red Bull switching to Honda mid-season, Toro Rosso would fight Red Bull on track, Toro Rosso was definitely not sacrificing their season to help out Honda and a lot more bla bla. All of this perpetuated by Honda and Red Bull PR folk. When things started going south, all of a sudden the story switched and people seemed to just accept the new reality of TR as being just a test mule for RB. It's revisionism and everybody just seemed to go along with it.

And then there's the infamous 'Canada upgrade' which was widely reported as the deciding factor for Red Bull to with Honda for 2019. There was talk of 'over 40 HP extra' and that the engine definitely leapfrogged Renault and could maybe even rival Ferrari. The media frenzy was insane, and nobody seemed to point out the obvious: nothing changed. The team scored fewer points, didn't qualify or race any better and only ended up getting more grid penalties because parts kept getting replaced. Again, somehow people saw that as a good sign in some twisted way. The reports kept talking about the 'much lauded Canada update' but nobody ever expanded on what that actually did. It didn't seem to make the engine more reliable, or faster.

My hypothesis: Honda gets a lot of (very undeserved in my view) slack for some reason, both in the media and the fan'osphere. Is it because they're some kind of underdog? Is it because they're Japanese and they are somehow more respected than the French of Renault? If the Renault guy said anything he would get shouted down and nobody would believe a word he said. But now somehow almost everyone swallows everything that comes out of the Honda camp. Helmut Marko is almost never taken seriously but when he says something positive about Honda people suddenly think he's on to something. I'm simply baffled by it all!
No one with any credibility and knowledge of what would be involved would say that. A lot of forums and uninformed press were floating it but it was never going to happen as the logistics of doing it are huge.
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Old 28 Mar 2019, 12:14 (Ref:3893905)   #49
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Would they have been allowed to switch? How would the limited number of engines that they can use have fitted in?
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Old 28 Mar 2019, 13:18 (Ref:3893915)   #50
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Would they have been allowed to switch? How would the limited number of engines that they can use have fitted in?
I suspect that outside of a force majeure scenario, the rules prevent teams from switching. Poor performance of (or poor relationship with) your current supplier would not count. There was talk amongst fans of an early switch given the poor relationship with Renault, but I think it was always fantasy. I ďthinkĒ we even discussed this at the time on this forum? It might have also been in the Honda/McLaren context. Of McLaren switching mid-season? I think Honda would have had to walk away from F1 and refuse to supply power units to trigger an allowance for McLaren. I think Red Bull/Renault was even more fantasy than Honda/McLaren.

This is history and generally a moot point. It it was going on now, and I had more free time (busy day today) I might dig and find the regulations that talk to this.

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Old 28 Mar 2019, 23:14 (Ref:3894012)   #51
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I suspect that outside of a force majeure scenario, the rules prevent teams from switching.
I was wrong. The sporting regulations (Art 8.3) say you can switch engine supplier mid season. But I think only the points scored for the engine nominated at the start of the season count towards WCC. Not sure of impact toward WDC. I assume engine allowance counts are independent of supplier, but didnít dig in the regulations for that info.

So itís doable, but painful.

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Old 1 Apr 2019, 18:58 (Ref:3894728)   #52
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So the RBR Honda situation is interesting. They certainly appear to be further back from Ferrari and Mercedes than previously. They don't look like they could steal a cheeky win like they previously could. So from that you could say they're worse off.

But looking at the current state of the Renault powered teams, specifically the works Renault team, it's hard to argue they didn't make the right choice. McLaren appear to have made a significant step forward, so it will be interesting to see what happens with the RBR -> McLaren gap.

RBR appear to be in a position where they've taken a step back, but the other option looks to be two steps back.
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Old 2 Apr 2019, 13:16 (Ref:3894855)   #53
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Well it seems Max was blaming the chassis, which makes a nice change!
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Old 2 Apr 2019, 13:45 (Ref:3894868)   #54
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I think if we had not had the significant chassis changes this year it might make it easier to measure relative progress of Honda vs. the other power unit manufactures. As it stands now, who did a good job (and who didn't) with the new regulations is clouding things a bit. Plus, everyone (including Mercedes and Ferrari) are not static with respect to their power unit improvements. Harder to compare 2018 vs. 2019.

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