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Old 24 Mar 2019, 13:17 (Ref:3893063)   #31
Mike Harte
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Originally Posted by morninggents View Post
It just seems odd to me that a company of Honda's standing and history in F1 wouldn't have put an engine in some old mule to test somewhere.

They may have done, Peter, but if they did it certainly didn't replicate what they experience as soon as they packaged it in the McLaren. Now, that may have been because of something in the McLaren that set off a resonance which induced the vibration which may not have happened in their trials.

No evidence to back up the above theory; just my thoughts. A bit like the problems that RBR and STR had with the Renault unit initially; all about the packaging.
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Old 24 Mar 2019, 13:31 (Ref:3893067)   #32
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I agree with that, Mike. It's probably why both McLaren and Torro Rosso improved in 2018 over 2017 after swapping engines. However, I would say McLaren's improvement was marginally better than TR's.
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Old 25 Mar 2019, 00:49 (Ref:3893142)   #33
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Toro Rosso did not improve though, they scored far fewer points with Honda in 2018 than with Renault in 2017 and finished lower in the championship. McLaren went forward after switching from Honda to Renault.
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Old 25 Mar 2019, 03:09 (Ref:3893156)   #34
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Toro Rosso did not improve though, they scored far fewer points with Honda in 2018 than with Renault in 2017 and finished lower in the championship. McLaren went forward after switching from Honda to Renault.
STR were running the 2018 season as a joint development exercise with Honda to recover the time ( and morale) wasted by Honda with McLaren over previous seasons. This year's results at end of season for both RBR and STR will indicate if this was a good investment of the Red Bull money involved.
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Old 25 Mar 2019, 03:15 (Ref:3893157)   #35
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Be that as it may, the idea that TR actually improved in 2018 is not supported by any evidence
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Old 25 Mar 2019, 03:28 (Ref:3893160)   #36
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Be that as it may, the idea that TR actually improved in 2018 is not supported by any evidence
Well... on track they didnt improve in performance, but I bet the engine installers got really good at replacing ICU/MGU-H/MGU-K/Battery/Turbos etc etc etc and have it down to an art form...
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Old 25 Mar 2019, 04:05 (Ref:3893161)   #37
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It’s fair to look at points totals for 2018 vs 2017 for STR and McLaren to try to come to objective conclusion, but I think looking at the end of year points is far from a realistic picture of 2018. It just doesn’t tell the full story.

First off, the 2017 Renault was much better than the 2017 Honda. That’s really not saying much, but that sets the stage for the start of 2018.

So between 2017 and 2018, Honda was deep in the throws of trying hard to get their act together. They were focusing on reliability for the start of 2018, but also trying to solve performance issues as well. They had problems they didn’t yet have solutions for, and problems that had solutions (such as bad MGU-H/turbo design) but had to carry over the 2017 solutions into 2018 until the replacement would show up mid year.

Point being, they were much more reliable, but still way back on performance at the start of 2018. So at start of 2018, positive for McLaren, negative for STR and positive for Honda. At the end of 2018, Honda had rolled out numerous improvements in both reliability and performance. Depending upon who you believe, they were either nipping at the heals of Renault or on par with them. So maybe parity or nearly so between McLaren and STR on the power unit front. STR was also hampered by them trying a lot of early aero ideas with the focus on 2019 (I believe this was publicly reported or at a minimum rumored.) some of that just didn’t work out. The focus at STR was first on 2019 (support Honda development, and try 2019 aero stuff) and second the 2018 championship. So of course 2018 was going to be worse for STR “overall”.

The real story was that someone was going to have to gamble with Honda. And part of that gamble was to have a likely sucky 2018 with the hopes of a good 2019. McLaren said “No”, had a better 2019, but are maybe privately looking longingly at the reborn Honda and wondering “what if...” Red Bull, said “Yes”, sacrificed STR for a semi-sucky, but not terrible 2018. Now both STR and RBR are looking at least hopefull for 2019 and beyond. The related question is can Renault make big jumps or are they stuck with Honda maybe having passed by them???

The other problem with trying to look at 2017 vs 2018 as a Honda vs. Renault comparison is that it ignores everything else that was going on with those two teams. Large changes with drivers, constant work to improve poor cars, etc. Too many changing variables to make significant conclusions IMHO.

And as always... we are just one race into the season, so no counting of Honda eggs just yet! I am optimistic, but also not willing to place bets yet either.

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Old 25 Mar 2019, 04:44 (Ref:3893164)   #38
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I think that's indeed too optimistic! You make a very good point that points are not the entire story. So let me give my view on that. Maybe I have too long a memory but after winter testing and Gasly's random 4th place at Bahrain, there was talk of Red Bull switching to Honda mid-season, Toro Rosso would fight Red Bull on track, Toro Rosso was definitely not sacrificing their season to help out Honda and a lot more bla bla. All of this perpetuated by Honda and Red Bull PR folk. When things started going south, all of a sudden the story switched and people seemed to just accept the new reality of TR as being just a test mule for RB. It's revisionism and everybody just seemed to go along with it.

And then there's the infamous 'Canada upgrade' which was widely reported as the deciding factor for Red Bull to with Honda for 2019. There was talk of 'over 40 HP extra' and that the engine definitely leapfrogged Renault and could maybe even rival Ferrari. The media frenzy was insane, and nobody seemed to point out the obvious: nothing changed. The team scored fewer points, didn't qualify or race any better and only ended up getting more grid penalties because parts kept getting replaced. Again, somehow people saw that as a good sign in some twisted way. The reports kept talking about the 'much lauded Canada update' but nobody ever expanded on what that actually did. It didn't seem to make the engine more reliable, or faster.

My hypothesis: Honda gets a lot of (very undeserved in my view) slack for some reason, both in the media and the fan'osphere. Is it because they're some kind of underdog? Is it because they're Japanese and they are somehow more respected than the French of Renault? If the Renault guy said anything he would get shouted down and nobody would believe a word he said. But now somehow almost everyone swallows everything that comes out of the Honda camp. Helmut Marko is almost never taken seriously but when he says something positive about Honda people suddenly think he's on to something. I'm simply baffled by it all!
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Old 25 Mar 2019, 08:50 (Ref:3893186)   #39
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I think Honda lost a bit of respect for the way they went racing in the 00s. It was nothing like the good old days of the mid 80s to early 90s when they were top notch in the sport. Only now with RBR are they starting to regain credibility
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Old 25 Mar 2019, 09:15 (Ref:3893198)   #40
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Toro Rosso did not improve though, they scored far fewer points with Honda in 2018 than with Renault in 2017 and finished lower in the championship. McLaren went forward after switching from Honda to Renault.

Correct. I made the mistake at looking only at the 2017 drivers points table which only shows Sainz (I think) as driving Renault. TR's total season points reduced from 53 to 33 between 2017 and 2018 whereas McLaren improved from 30 to 62.
Lesson learnt to improve my research.
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Old 25 Mar 2019, 13:29 (Ref:3893263)   #41
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My hypothesis: Honda gets a lot of (very undeserved in my view) slack for some reason, both in the media and the fan'osphere. Is it because they're some kind of underdog? Is it because they're Japanese and they are somehow more respected than the French of Renault? If the Renault guy said anything he would get shouted down and nobody would believe a word he said. But now somehow almost everyone swallows everything that comes out of the Honda camp. Helmut Marko is almost never taken seriously but when he says something positive about Honda people suddenly think he's on to something. I'm simply baffled by it all!
i guess it depends on what media you follow F1 through...admittedly im alot of autosport and motorsport.com so basically a Zak Brown media lens through which there was a daily dose of Honda penalties, Honda issues, 'Alonso is too good for this' stories (almost all of which served to also absolve Mclaren imo).

no doubt a lot of my Honda optimism comes from reading this stream of blame which in turn actually made them an underdog i now root for.

funny how the media works

agreed about Marko though!
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Old 26 Mar 2019, 12:25 (Ref:3893493)   #42
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All of this perpetuated by Honda and Red Bull PR folk. When things started going south, all of a sudden the story switched and people seemed to just accept the new reality of TR as being just a test mule for RB. It's revisionism and everybody just seemed to go along with it.
We will have to disagree on this point. Honda entered last season with a number of known deficiencies. Red Bull and Honda both knew this. It wasn’t a development that appeared after the season started. Red Bull had stated they would be talking updates from Honda on an aggressive schedule. Basically as quickly as Honda could deliver them. Yes the championship mattered because that impacts payouts, but Red Bull was taking a longer view (potential of Honda at RBR in 2019) than just being hyper focused on performance of STR in 2018. Why say statements from Honda and Red Bull that support this are just PR speak?

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Helmut Marko is almost never taken seriously but when he says something positive about Honda people suddenly think he's on to something. I'm simply baffled by it all!
I can’t speak for other forums and I primarily visit this forum and F1technical.net, but here, I am the one who mentioned the Marko comment. So I must be the “Honda people”. Note. it’s Ok to quote me by name. Re-read my comment regarding Marko. I call out my doubt given his history. I mostly say it’s interesting that he points the finger at RBR not Honda. When is the last time he has done that?

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The media frenzy was insane
Blame the F1 media. They are the ones who blow things out of proportion. They need a story and will latch onto most anything that can generate a headline. Especially on a slow news day. If it wasn’t Honda, it would be something else.

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My hypothesis: Honda gets a lot of (very undeserved in my view) slack for some reason, both in the media and the fan'osphere. Is it because they're some kind of underdog?
I am a Honda fan, but if you read my posts (go back years as this topic has been discussed to death here) you will see I am hard on them. I don’t think they get slack in the media. I think everyone is quit hard on them. Honda is not faultless by far. Their problems are of their own creation. To my point above.. the media will hype anything that smells of drama. It is in their nature. That includes underdog stories as you mention. Oh! Poor Honda, prior champ, down on their luck... that type of stuff. McLaren and Williams fit that mold in the media today as well. Lots of stories about them recently as well.

The fan’osphere is not a place for any type of objectivity as a whole, so why even bring that up. Give a Tifosi a hard time about Ferrari and what do you expect in return? Now, I guess I am biased, but I would say that as a whole, many fans are down on Honda. Vocally saying they should leave the sport, etc. As a racing fan, and given the need of diversity in F1, how can anyone say that? But hey, the fans are what they are. Everyone has their list of heros and villains and everyone’s list is different.

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Old 27 Mar 2019, 01:49 (Ref:3893589)   #43
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I've visited some other communities and read other sources on F1 news, and my view is that people are very hard on Renault and very easy on Honda. I am a fan of neither, you claim to be a fan of Honda. I will leave it up to the other people who read this to decide who makes the better argument here.
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Old 27 Mar 2019, 11:29 (Ref:3893710)   #44
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I've visited some other communities and read other sources on F1 news, and my view is that people are very hard on Renault and very easy on Honda. I am a fan of neither, you claim to be a fan of Honda. I will leave it up to the other people who read this to decide who makes the better argument here.
Sounds good Apex. Given you are very new here, maybe you should read older posts by me before passing judgement regarding my “Honda bias”. You can learn I am a fan of many things. Williams and McLaren are two. I can be quite harsh on them. Again, read my posts. Note, acknowledging that I have biases (everyone does) does automatically make me wrong on specific topics.

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Old 28 Mar 2019, 00:45 (Ref:3893822)   #45
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No need to be so defensive, I'm specifically saying I'm leaving it up to other people to pass the judgement.
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