[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[Bcarr6]

Well, I’ll tempt fate here and say the new regs look fantastic.

Manufacturer and privateer friendly

Potentially quite affordable

More relevant to road car styling

Potentially more manufacturer interest


I love the style of current LMP1s, but I think you can see that style generally speaking in LMP2, so it’ll be great to have variation

Not sure how this will affect LMP2 and GTE, but I hope we see P2 survive, and some form of GT stay on.

I’d actually be happen to see an IMSA-ish format-

P1 (or GTP/whatever) for factory efforts and high level fully professional privateers

P2 for pro am lineups

GT for pro am lineups, would say I’d be fine to see GT3 used here


Point is I think P2 and GT would be great as firmly pro am classes with the serious pro lineups in P1 wether that’s through factory lineups or privateers

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

lol at the idea of nuclear fusion for hydrogen production. Might as well get a perpetual motion machine out and plug it into the ByKolles.

lol at it all you want, but nuclear fusion has made huge leaps in the past few years. Researchers actually got more power out of a fusion reaction than was put into creating it not too long ago - and have replicated it in subsequent tests.


Unfortunately the reaction only lasts something like 11 seconds.



Anyhow, that's my last comment on that. Got to try to stick to the subject at hand.

[PascaLM]

Originally Posted by canaglia

Didn't figure out yet, 700hp (522kw) will be the overall power output target or just the ICE target?

As I read 200kw will be hybrid max power release, so it remains just about 320kw from ICE?

320kw are just about 430hp! this power could be easily achieved by a street turbo 2L

The ACO and FIA are studying the rules to have cars able of 3'20'' per lap which is impossible with only 430 hp, 200kw on electric and 980 kg. I think (and hope) it's ICE only.

[tomerswayler]

A crazy thought I just had. With defined numbers for drag and downforce, a Privateer could design a car that looks like a Porsche 956 or Sauber Mercedes. The new wider roof and windscreen looks similar in the concept picture.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by canaglia

Didn't figure out yet, 700hp (522kw) will be the overall power output target or just the ICE target?

As I read 200kw will be hybrid max power release, so it remains just about 320kw from ICE?

320kw are just about 430hp! this power could be easily achieved by a street turbo 2L

According to the reports that are elaborating on it, 700 horsepower from the engine, plus 271 horsepower from the hybrid system.

[tigas]

The only way that hydrogen production makes sense energetically is if we can crack water directly using sunlight. Hydrogen then becomes one other way of storing sun energy.

However, there is one big issue that everybody's missing. Hydrogen, in liquid molecular form, is a DEVIL to transport and store. It embrittles most metals, escapes between the atoms in a metal crystal (diffusion), and needs to be kept at near absolute zero and huge pressures. A safe, cost-effective way of storing hydrogen is still not available.

And to all of that, am I hearing that instead of using a fuel-cell with an efficiency of 50-60%, you are expecting to burn the hydrogen in an ICE (30% efficiency)?

As for battery-electric cars - they can happen, but the rules would have to be overhauled from first principles. Just for starters, high-drag downforce would be out of the question, the penalty for drag on a vehicle that has to carry the full weight of the battery with or without energy is deadly. The cars would have to be as streamlined as possible, going back to ground effects, and relying more on mechanical grip. Laugh as much as you want at the Delta-wing, but that was a step on the right direction; a step too far and off the cliff, I grant you, but more realistic than thinking you can stick a battery on a current GT car or heaven forbid a prototype and have a race with that, no matter how many amps you feed the pitlane and how many cells you can pack into a battery to enable fast charging times.

We're stuck with hybrids, as far as I can tell. The race for technology in racing should be in finding greater efficiency. Once upon a time, semiautomatic gearboxes, pneumatic valvetrains, turbos, electronic engine control, they were all very expensive. Now they're not. Porsche was using half of a MGU-H on the 919. Disregarding the MGU-H because it's "expensive" and "hard"? What is this, NASCAR?

[joeb]

Originally Posted by tomerswayler

A crazy thought I just had. With defined numbers for drag and downforce, a Privateer could design a car that looks like a Porsche 956 or Sauber Mercedes. The new wider roof and windscreen looks similar in the concept picture.

I'm still a little fuzzy on the privateer portion of this. Would they design a generic looking supercar for their own use and buy a power train from a participating manufacturer?

[FormulaFox]

I said I was done with this, so I apologize to the mods, but I feel an overwhelming urge to reply to one specific line. I'll keep it brief.

Originally Posted by tigas

And to all of that, am I hearing that instead of using a fuel-cell with an efficiency of 50-60%, you are expecting to burn the hydrogen in an ICE (30% efficiency)?

I'm not expecting to do anything. I was merely making mention of what is possible. Despite the beliefs of many, there have been a lot of developments towards being able to do things once thought impossible. We're not talking about putting a hydrogen generator IN a car, after all - that is indeed physically impossible to achieve in any way that could function in even the wildest dreams of the most optimistic physicist.


But this is not the time or place to debate it, so can we please move on and stick to the topic of the thread??

Porsche was using half of a MGU-H on the 919. Disregarding the MGU-H because it's "expensive" and "hard"? What is this, NASCAR?

And where is Porsche right now? That's right; Gone.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by joeb

I'm still a little fuzzy on the privateer portion of this. Would they design a generic looking supercar for their own use and buy a power train from a participating manufacturer?

Sofar as I can tell, they can just...build a racecar. There doesn't appear to be an absolute requirement that the cars be based on a road car.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by joeb

I'm still a little fuzzy on the privateer portion of this. Would they design a generic looking supercar for their own use and buy a power train from a participating manufacturer?

That's how I understand it. Bit like the Quaife and Sintura GT1s from the late 90s.

Gesendet von meinem SM-A320FL mit Tapatalk

[tigas]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

I said I was done with this, so I apologize to the mods, but I feel an overwhelming urge to reply to one specific line. I'll keep it brief.



I'm not expecting to do anything. I was merely making mention of what is possible. Despite the beliefs of many, there have been a lot of developments towards being able to do things once thought impossible. We're not talking about putting a hydrogen generator IN a car, after all - that is indeed physically impossible to achieve in any way that could function in even the wildest dreams of the most optimistic physicist.


But this is not the time or place to debate it, so can we please move on and stick to the topic of the thread??



And where is Porsche right now? That's right; Gone.

If they're not used, they'll never become cheap. I forgot to make that point in my post. I'm also ready to stop this line of discussion and go back to what we were doing (speculating over incomplete information, I believe)

[RedSquirrel]

The proposals are mostly fine with three glaring exceptions.

Firstly, the massive mass increase (puns!). I think 980kg would make these the heaviest prototypes ever except for the once-off 1000kg in 1991. Though it's not clear if this 980kg is the empty car or if it is car plus driver, so I've hope yet.

Secondly, the cockpit size. The two seater thing is a weird one. If the huge head restraint was removed it would be possible to fit two people (certainly two jockeys anyway)side by side in the current cars. Peugeot did it with the 908 HDi and I don't think the cockpits have shrunk since then. If they absolutely have to make the cockpits wider then surely about 10cm should be enough. The cars would retain the appearance of the bodywork being shrink-wrapped over the mechanicals that prototypes have always had while becoming definitively two seaters.

Thirdly, whilst the downforce cap is an interesting way to control cornering speeds, I do not like at all the fact that drag will be regulated as well. It simply means that every chassis will have the same drag and downforce. They may as well introduce a spec chassis if they're going to be at that nonsense.


Some other thoughts:

• Active aero could be good or could become horrifically complex and expensive.

• Sort-of off the shelf hybrid systems will be fantastic for privateers but I wonder why energy released will be limited to 5MJ per lap. Toyota and Porsche acheived 6MJ relatively easily all the way back in 2014. Batteries have become significantly more energy-dense since then. Would a 2016 or 2017 level battery pack really be too expensive for privateers? 2020 would be four years after that level of technology was first raced. Surely the costs would come down. Incidently, this could be an opportunity for Toyota or Porsche to sell/lease a version of their systems. With the price being capped, privateers would jump at the chance to run race- and championship-winning works kit.

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by tigas

If they're not used, they'll never become cheap. I forgot to make that point in my post.

A fair point, yes, unfortunately not one that's helpful here. If nobody's willing to use them, then it's a moot point, wouldn't you say?


The hybrid methodology used in LMP1 was far cheaper than in F1, and even that couldn't keep sufficient manufacturer interest around. True, Audi's departure was more fallout from Dieselgate than anything else, but even if Audi had remained, if Porsche had left it was still going to be quite a sting. If the privateers can't challenge them having only two manufacturers doesn't look good.


The manufacturers ultimately weren't interested. IMSA had produced a good base idea with DPi, but that was never practical as anything more than a stopgap - the fact that it's only participating manufacturers were already involved in Prototype racing speaks volumes for it's wider appeal.


The thing to keep in mind is that as restrictive as these rules are, nothing is stopping the ACO from slowly opening up areas over time. Just as with the 1994 debut of the World SportsCar class - it was initially heavily restricted, but as years went on those restrictions were lessened to the point where the modern LMP was eventually born.


Sportscar racing is cyclical. Tight restrictions give way to open rules until the open rules prove too much, then it goes back to restricted. Right now, we're seeing that cycle begin anew.

[Hans Stuck Fan]

Que sera, sera

Folk will either watch these cars or not.

I’m just glad that all-electric hasn’t been specified.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by RedSquirrel

The proposals are mostly fine with three glaring exceptions.

Firstly, the massive mass increase (puns!). I think 980kg would make these the heaviest prototypes ever except for the once-off 1000kg in 1991. Though it's not clear if this 980kg is the empty car or if it is car plus driver, so I've hope yet.

Secondly, the cockpit size. The two seater thing is a weird one. If the huge head restraint was removed it would be possible to fit two people (certainly two jockeys anyway)side by side in the current cars. Peugeot did it with the 908 HDi and I don't think the cockpits have shrunk since then. If they absolutely have to make the cockpits wider then surely about 10cm should be enough. The cars would retain the appearance of the bodywork being shrink-wrapped over the mechanicals that prototypes have always had while becoming definitively two seaters.

Thirdly, whilst the downforce cap is an interesting way to control cornering speeds, I do not like at all the fact that drag will be regulated as well. It simply means that every chassis will have the same drag and downforce. They may as well introduce a spec chassis if they're going to be at that nonsense.


Some other thoughts:

• Active aero could be good or could become horrifically complex and expensive.

• Sort-of off the shelf hybrid systems will be fantastic for privateers but I wonder why energy released will be limited to 5MJ per lap. Toyota and Porsche acheived 6MJ relatively easily all the way back in 2014. Batteries have become significantly more energy-dense since then. Would a 2016 or 2017 level battery pack really be too expensive for privateers? 2020 would be four years after that level of technology was first raced. Surely the costs would come down. Incidently, this could be an opportunity for Toyota or Porsche to sell/lease a version of their systems. With the price being capped, privateers would jump at the chance to run race- and championship-winning works kit.

I agree with you on a lot of points. I'm glad that hybrids will be made available to private teams. I'm not sure if I like the idea of a compulsory hybrid though. I guess with that being the case it makes fuel flow easier to manage or equalize between the teams. Not really sure why they feel 980kg is the weight these cars should be. 880kg seems like a more realistic total. Why make cars even heavier when they just made them lighter?

[FormulaFox]

Originally Posted by TF110

I agree with you on a lot of points. I'm glad that hybrids will be made available to private teams. I'm not sure if I like the idea of a compulsory hybrid though. I guess with that being the case it makes fuel flow easier to manage or equalize between the teams.

The hybrid system is apparently supposed to drive the front tires only, so I suspect it has more to do with that than anything else. With the added weight in particular, sticking to an all-wheel-drive setup may be necessary to stay reliably competitive even without a hybrid. The could drive up costs a bit, and cost saving is clearly a core tenet of getting the new LMP1 started.

Not really sure why they feel 980kg is the weight these cars should be. 880kg seems like a more realistic total. Why make cars even heavier when they just made them lighter?

My theory: By increasing the minimum weight, manufacturers with smaller cash flows have a better chance of building a base car that can contend with bigger budget builders. They don't have to worry about shedding weight in as many corners, which can save a lot of money on both design and building.

[deggis]

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/l...ay-notebook-8/

***ACO Sporting Director Vincent Beaumesnil said they haven’t yet decided on whether LMP2 cars will be slowed down for the launch season of the new ‘hypercar’ regulations in 2020-21. The ACO has targeted a 3:20 lap time for the new prototype platform, which is close to the current performance of LMP2, which is locked in through the end of the 2020-21 season.

***Beaumesnil also said it hasn’t been decided if the eligibility of the current LMP1 non-hybrids will be extended beyond the 2019-20 season.

[deggis]

Some actual comments from Atherton and not just the PR-blah-blah:

https://racer.com/2018/06/15/insight...ept-leave-dpi/

“We will not abandon the core tenets that have enabled our championship to attain the success and the sustainability we believe it has,” he said. “That could be an optimistic statement in terms of the , but it’s worth seeing if it can be achieved.”

..

“The know exactly where we stand in what we believe is a sustainable budget,” he said. “And it really comes down to that. We could talk for hours about hybrid technology, the cockpit greenhouse dimensions, and all the technical details, but what it really boils down to is this: will the budget to develop these cars, and then to race these cars, fall within the range of sustainability we know applies to North America?

“The commitment to see this through to the end is what we’re confirming today. If, in the end, it is unfortunately demonstrated that we can’t get there, rest assured we won’t compromise, we won’t jeopardize, we won’t abandon what we have going in North America simply to have the satisfaction of saying we’re part of a global formula.

“That’s a mistake we will not make. And we’re not alone in our perspective. We’ve been in multiple manufacturer meetings this week, and similar concerns were expressed with the proposed budgets. And the fact that it’s a huge improvement to where LMP1 is today on costs, some have said it’s not enough for them to participate. And our name is also on that list.”

[YZFrider]

About 2024 reg speculations, if they do push through with Hydrogen, I see it as electric fuel cell vehicles too. It’s more efficient to convert the fuel directly to electricity and power electric motors than to combust it and extract work as heat. Not to mention the energy per volume in Hydrogen is a lot less than gasoline. The cars will be makin a lot more frequent stops to refuel

[TheMightyM]

Originally Posted by FormulaFox

My theory: By increasing the minimum weight, manufacturers with smaller cash flows have a better chance of building a base car that can contend with bigger budget builders. They don't have to worry about shedding weight in as many corners, which can save a lot of money on both design and building.

That was my thought as well. The same logic also applies to privateers. Of course, it's a balancing act — there's no positive PR value/ROI for a big manufacturer in losing too often to a privateer racing a generic ACO/WEC hypercar.

[TheMightyM]

Originally Posted by deggis

***Beaumesnil also said it hasn’t been decided if the eligibility of the current LMP1 non-hybrids will be extended beyond the 2019-20 season.

Well that reduces the chances of more privateers joining for the less super (one Le Mans) 2019-20 season.

[carbsmith]

Not a prototype, and barely even a race car. A fuel efficiency formula with such a massive minimum weight and a specified drag number is an absolute joke. The power limit makes it an insult.

Worse yet someone will spend tens of millions on boring things like yaw wind tunnel testing and ride control like NASCAR anyways.

[Mike E]

Originally Posted by Mike E

We're just talking about super DPi here, aren't we?

A carbon tub, bodywork to conform to aero demands, some stylised lights, a bit of chrome and some stickers to make it vaguely resemble a road car, and a spec hybrid system bolted into the front.

McLaren and others (Ford?) have said they favour a formula that is eligible in multiple series (ie WEC and IMSA), and everyone has seen the DPi manufacturers succeed in IMSA with very limited expenditure. They want to expand on that in a top level category with a cost cap.

What sort of performance would you get out of a current DPi with 100kg knocked off and a 5MJ hybrid system added?

Hmmmmm...
https://twitter.com/specutainment/st...545637888?s=19

[tigas]

Originally Posted by deggis

Some actual comments from Atherton and not just the PR-blah-blah:

https://racer.com/2018/06/15/insight...ept-leave-dpi/

"sustainability" = Nobody watches us compared to NASCAR or Indycar, and our top racing programmes are paid for by the marketing department and not the technical R&D dept, so we want them to put their badge on racing cars on the cheap.

IMSA had already said the current ruleset would be unchanged until 2022, and these regulations will be fiddled with until then, so IMSA can wait-and-see. But according to what was said on the MP podcast yesterday, IMSA teams were sent a questionnaire about what they wanted out of the new rules, said they wanted the new rules to be DPi and were surprised when the FIA ignored them.
At least for 2022, IMSA seems to have resigned themselves to a bit of hybridization (but only because everybody else will be doing it by then).

[Akrapovic]

"They wanted the new rules to be DPi". Of course they do...because they already have the cars. When the PC teams were asked what they wanted, they all wanted to keep the PCs. Doesn't make it the right call - just suits the teams.

Not sure why they are "surprised" they were "ignored". I absolutely love IMSA, but the ACO have to build what they feel is right for their customers, not anyone elses. That's like PWC including IMSA teams in a discussion on the future, and then "ignoring" them when they all say "We'd love to bring our GTLM cars to the series!".

Love MP (and IMSA), but he does seem to beat the "IMSA is always the way" drum. Even managed to somehow claim GTLM And GTD were full IMSA products just because they gave them their own technical passes.

I'm perfectly fine with a different set of rules for LMP1 and DPi if that's how it goes. IMSA has been absolutely awesome the last year or so, and LMP1 is looking good too. Without unified rules, things are just fine.