Porsche Confirms New 911 RSR GTE Car for 2017

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by schmidder

Do they have to now make their entire line up of sports cars mid engined.

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This is always the argument that is given whenever this is discussed. Introducing a mid-engine car above the 911 (but not a halo car) does NOT mean ending the production or sales of the 911. The 911 is a niche car and will continue to have its followers and clients.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by schmidder

And the Cayman gt4 is pretty darn close to the 911 these days

What I say below is not really news to anyone but I enjoy getting on this soapbox on occasion...

Porsche has a long history of mid-engine cars (race and road). But generally speaking they also have a long history of neutering cars within their own line up that might actually perform better than the 911. Clearly they don't with the limited production "halo" cars such as the Carrera GT and 918, but take the Boxster, Cayman and 914/6 for example. While we have recently seen special editions that can challenge 911 models from a power/performance perspective, generally speaking Porsche will always keep those models somewhat underpowered. The issue is that they are inherently a better performing design and if given equivalent engines, etc. they will always perform better than the 911. Ultimately that is also the root of my complaints about the 911 and GT racing.

Why does this somewhat bug me personally? I am not just a Porsche fan, but I also have owned a few 914s (mid-engine if not familiar with the model) over the years (including one current in middle of resto/mod). And even back in the 1970's Porsche restricted the engine power of the 914/6 to keep it from challenging the 911. While 911 of that era used a 2.4L six, the 914/6 was limited to a 2.0L six. Some suspension bits were also downsized (brakes for example). Engine and suspension swaps showed that with equal equipment the 914/6 performed better. And the talk of a "Ferrari Fighter" goes back decades as well. The type 916 prototype road car was basically a 914/6 with upgraded engine, etc. and was targeting the Ferrari Dino. The 916 didn't move forward for a number of reasons, but I suspect part of it was that it would also overshadow the 911.

Originally Posted by Spyderman

The 911 is the backbone of Porsche (although it NOT the TOP seller).
Porsche is traumatized by its experience in the late 70's when it tried to substitute the 911 with the 928. It was complete and utter failure (especially among Porschephiles who happen to be amongst the most conservative aficionados in the world of sportscars).
The Company almost went bankrupt and Porsche learned their lesson. Unfortunately this decision to fiercely "protect" the 911 also brings with it far less strategic flexibility . I'm sure that eventually Porsche will come up with a mid-engine car (not just a halo car), but I expect to only see tiny little baby steps in that direction until eventually someone at Porsche has the testicular fortitude to run the gauntlet.

I agree with most of this. However one thing to note is that generally speaking, I suspect most (if not all) who lived that rough road are gone at Porsche. I am a believer that in general corporate memory is short. And that there likely is many (management, engineers, etc.) within Porsche (the manufacture) who would like to explore other options. I am not saying dump the 911 or anything, but to not be afraid to push other models forward into the space reserved for the 911.

So the question is "Who is behind the 911 edict?" I believe that ultimately it is something that comes from the Porsche/Piech family which "do" have the extended history that goes back decades. More specifically, probably the supervisory board of Porsche Automobil Holding SE. I wish none of them ill will at all, but I suspect that until a new generation takes charge nothing is going to change with respect to the 911 being the "face" of Porsche in all respects including GT racing.

Richard

[schmidder]

Ok, so ill ask again, porsche should now make all its sports cars mid engined? I think turbo charging the rear engine 911 in gte form might help a bit, but I don't see them going away from the rear engine. Might make for a more competitive gte racer (and fantastic car), but it would be too upsetting to the purists imo

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[schmidder]

Sorry guys, didn't see the extra page of posts today before I wrote this..

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[bobec]

That's true, the Cayman has all the potential to be a superior car to the 911, but they won't let it. Also, in terms of road cars, it has the reputation of being a lower class car than the 911.

Could they just split their top production line into the 911 and a bigger and meaner Cayman-like car that is not a Cayman? One will be an excellent everyday sports car with 2+2 seats (and the 911 is a wonderful car) that will continue to race in many series (and why not continue in GTE-AM), while the other one will be a regular production Ferrari-fighter with two seats and a mid-engine, focused on performance instead of comfort and everyday usefulness, and definitely not an entry-level Porsche like the Cayman/Boxster.

Or maybe the 911 can be improved enough - who knows? Just keep moving more stuff in front of the rear axle and keep moving more stuff to the front. All that weight in the back may not be very good for handling in general, but the grip when accelerating out of a tight turn is spectacular. Still can't forget how the Dempsey Porsche made a F458 spin out at Arnage (if I remember correctly) in the 2015 LM.

[Brake dust]

It seems fairly certain that the new Porsche GTE will have a "more" mid engine 911 car. Thoughts on the engine? Will it be turbo or NA? Will it be the production based 9a1 engine design that is in the 991 GT3RS or will it be a completely new motorsport developed engine?

[TRuss]

It was originally thought that it might be NA as there was no mention of turbo charging and the head on photos gave no hints to the contrary. In the newest testing photos though you can clearly see the large vents going into the rear fenders that are typically associated with turbo Porsches. Turbos certainly make more sense I would think. As for the basis of the engine, i suppose that's anybody's guess.

[BSchneiderFan]

So long as it's not a V8. The day Porsche produces a V8 911 is the day the heavens fall in. PJ O'Rourke may have described the 911 as an "ass-engined Nazi slot car", but it's the formula. Don't mess. If I won the Lottery, my local Porsche dealer would be one of my first ports of call. After the off-licence.

[TRuss]

With ever tightening emissions standards being placed on the manufacturers I'd say you have little to worry about. How do feel about about turbo four and hybrid powered 911s though?

[rich07]

Sportscar365's latest podcast mentions that Dagys is lead to believe it's not a turbo..

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by rich07

Sportscar365's latest podcast mentions that Dagys is lead to believe it's not a turbo..

If I remember correctly, it seems Porsche has a history of not making radical top to bottom overhauls of their GT cars. So more evolutionary vs. revolutionary. So I can believe they may carry over the current engine mostly unchanged (other than whatever is needed to place it mid engine such as intake and exhaust tweaks.) However, I also can imagine it being a turbo given the production cars are moving in that direction. I even speculated earlier in (this?) thread about the potential for it being a turbo four, but I suspect that is highly unlikely.

Richard

[Matt]

Originally Posted by TRuss

It was originally thought that it might be NA as there was no mention of turbo charging and the head on photos gave no hints to the contrary. In the newest testing photos though you can clearly see the large vents going into the rear fenders that are typically associated with turbo Porsches. Turbos certainly make more sense I would think. As for the basis of the engine, i suppose that's anybody's guess.

The current 991 GTE cars have the big vents in the rear quarters as well, yet they're not turbos.

[TRuss]

You're right. Even the GT3 RS has them.

[blankfile]

The video clip of it testing really does sound like a turbo though no?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAfZRBRfLXA

[TRuss]

You can hear some whistling when it's breaking and downshifting but, I'm not sure that makes it a positive ID for a turbo.

[Matt]

It's definitely got a turbo in that clip. Way more muted/lower revving than the standard N/A lump.

Compare:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5EeUqO2hySs

[TheNewBob]

Originally Posted by blankfile

The video clip of it testing really does sound like a turbo though no?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAfZRBRfLXA

Wouldn't want to put money on it being a turbo. Sounds a bit like the old 996.

[TRuss]

It does sound a little muted to me when making the direct comparison. The whistling at the end doesn't sound particularly turbo like. We'll see.

[Richard C]

Hard to say. To me it sounds very much like the current car.

Richard

(Edit: Given differences in locations, recording equipment, etc. it's hard to compare.)

[Matt]

I've heard the current cars many times in person, it sounds like they rev out to about 9800rpm .

That new clip should be fairly high in the rev range, and it just doesn't have the punch a naturally aspirated car would.

[rich07]

I want it to be turbo because I fear that's the only way Porsche is going to be competitive in GTLM going forward.

[chernaudi]

It could be turbocharged, or it might be NA. Hard to tell by that sound clip alone. Also, it has to be remembered that the Porsche 919 LMP1 engine is turbocharged, but is also fairly high (IMO, actually pretty high) revving, since it has about an 8500rpm redline.

[hondafan37]

I misunderstood or somebody was mentioned that Porsche was testing 2 cars, one turbocharged and one with aspirated engine. This may be confusing to some videos and photos without knowing that car is

[Articus]

I can't understand why they would not run the turbo engine unless they were worried that it was not reliable.

[Brake dust]

Originally Posted by rich07

I want it to be turbo because I fear that's the only way Porsche is going to be competitive in GTLM going forward.

I agree. Am also hoping its a brand new motorsport engine. Based on comments made by Hartmut Kristen, my impression is that the 9a1 engine was not going to be raced in GTE/ACO. A new engine was going to be developed once the new technical regulations were in place (GT3 / GTE convergence). Not sure developing a production based engine (9a1) into a race engine is a good thing.