Idea for a new formula

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

It's been like that so far, but I believe my championship can succeed.

To be honest, I can't see the gap in the market. I think the structure for single seaters is too complex anyway. There needs to be a four step structure IMO - Formula One, Formula Two, Formula Three, Formula Junior. F1 is the F1 we all know and love. F2 should be a replacement for GP2, with several engine and chassis makers, comprised of two championships during the "regular season" and ending with a play-off for the world championship. F3 should be the preserve of the top nations, with the crème de la creme of each participating in a four round world championship based on existing events (F3 Brazil Open, Pau, Zandvoort Masters, Macau). Formula Junior should be a starting point and eventually a common formula in club meetings worldwide. It also ought to be the basis for a World Cup style event.

This would have many advantages all across motorsport. Costs would go down as cars would be developed for fewer series, the sport would appear much easier for fans (look at the system for the lower tiers of football, baseball, rugby ETC and then look at motor racing), and the FJ element would produce a world cup - surely a showcase for the sport in countries where it isn't the most popular, due to a national team.

Speaking of ideas, as everyone's posting theirs, here a few bullet point thoughts about what should go below F1 instead of GP2.

• Up to 4000cc, up to 10 cylinders for N/A engines. Up to 2700cc, up to 8 cylinders for turbo engines. All rev limited (and in the case of turbos, pressure limited) so that a maximum of 600hp can be produced for each engine. Three engines should be homologated, and these rules should ensure all three are competitive - even if it's a V10 N/A, a V8 N/A and a V8 turbo. Plenty of existing engines would be sensible - the Judd 4 litre V10, the Acura V8 LMP1 engine, the old Cossie ChampCar lump, the Renault/BMW/Mecachrome 4 litre V8. Full engine provision for three years to come at a capped prices, each engine to be used by 1/3rd of the teams. One or two engines per season.
• Chassis somewhat similar to F3000, but a little larger, with venturi tunnels. Again, three would be homologated and there would be equalization. Total supply price, including a reasonable spares package, capped. Chassis must be capable of having any of the three engines fitted.
• A European and a Pacific championship, each with eight meetings, and a two meeting finals series at the end of the season. One 1 hour 20 minute or so race, you could start adding sprints if you want. Grand Final to have two races.

[kerrmanningjarv]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Thanks.

I like this idea a lot, I've always been an A1GP supporter because I love the national team idea. Yes the execution of A1GP wasn't the best but the idea is very good in my opinion.

A1GP was talking about eventually having regional/qualification events but obviously they haven't got that far!

[duke_toaster]

Regional finals would be an odd decision - it's not as if they could get more than 30 countries to enter. Also, A1GP teams could pretty much have been called London Monarchs/Paris Revolution/Singapore Storm or whatever as the qualifying contest was a cheque-writing one for buying the franchise. No Finland, no Sweden, no Spain, no Belgium, no Argentina ...

In a proper and fair world cup each ASN (the MSA for the UK, FFSA for France, DMSB for Germany - them) would put out a five-year tender to run the national team, who would then run the team). The FIA could dole out the running rights for nations that don't have racing teams located in that country, or a team to run the host nation if they don't have a normal team (all World Cup type things let the host nation in, even if they're totally rubbish - in the case of South Africa for the association football World Cup, 73rd in the world).

A World Cup with considerably lower budget cars (ideally, FRenault 2.0 or lower running costs and things), done in a way which would be equitable in who is in (like the method I proposed) - either a regional qualification stage like football (more difficult if it's to be held every year), or do what the IIHF do for ice hockey - have promotion and relegation. The actual World Cup could be run in December, as could some of the tiers, and some of the other ones could have been run in January. These are intentionally in the off-season, the only issue is venue selection here - Silverstone might be a little nippy, Portimao or the old airport in Athens probably not so.

[kerrmanningjarv]

Oh yes I agree with you there, the A1GP franchise system was/is indeed a bit flawed in that it depended on who wanted a franchise rather than which countries deserved to compete. I'm just recalling that they eventually wanted to set up some regional events, presumably they hoped interest would increase sufficiently in years to come as to attract many new teams.

Moving onto your idea, I do like it as I said. But (just playing devil's advocate here) if it were to be run in smaller, Formula Renault-style cars, would it get the drivers or media attention it deserved, and would it therefore be considered important? One of A1GP's criticisms has been the lack of recognisable drivers, and they had a Ferrari powered car which looked F1-like, and before that a pretty powerful (500-ish bhp) car based on an F3000 model. I see nothing wrong with a mixture of up and comers and veterans, however if the series had more established names, perhaps it would have been more successful?

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by kerrmanningjarv

Moving onto your idea, I do like it as I said. But (just playing devil's advocate here) if it were to be run in smaller, Formula Renault-style cars, would it get the drivers or media attention it deserved, and would it therefore be considered important?

I don't think it would be a major problem, indeed I think it would be an advantage to run those cars as it would enable more nations, and a key thing - three cars per team. A1GP had the problem where people were confused about Robbie Kerr overtaking Frank Montangy. This would actually be a team. As these cars would be very common, they could even be leased for the event and used for national series for the rest of the year.

One of A1GP's criticisms has been the lack of recognisable drivers,

I think part of the reason is not the car - it's difficult to get big names to do a championship that runs that sort of timing. I think such a World Cup should be just once a year in December. Afterwards the cars et al could be used for the national series.

and they had a Ferrari powered car which looked F1-like, and before that a pretty powerful (500-ish bhp) car based on an F3000 model.

I have no idea how fast these cars would be in numbers, but I'd expect ~180hp or so, high agility and light weight. Certainly fun to drive. I'd also suggest the event should be run on a reasonably short track, to make if feel a bit more arena-like.

I see nothing wrong with a mixture of up and comers and veterans, however if the series had more established names, perhaps it would have been more successful?

Even with this plan, running it as just one week (or possibly two weekends) in the off-season, would make it very unlikely to attract F1 drivers. However, you could get some national personalities, a few come-out-of-retirements (JV for Team Canada?), some up-and-coming ones and more. The words "World Cup" should be useful promotion, too.

[kerrmanningjarv]

All good points, it could work. Would definitely be a fun event to attend.

[duke_toaster]

I think the biggest challenge would be finding an appropriate venue - it should be somewhere relatively near a city centre (weeknight racing), much like a football stadium hosting weeknight matches. Something like a temporary track on a disused airport would be a very good idea.

[johntt]

I think a good first step would be for Gp2 to go to 2011 LMP1 engine rules (2.0l turbos and 3.4l NA engines, no diesels in single seaters please!) with the restrictors adjusted to keep power levels at the level of the current Gp2 V8 engine.

(LMP1 2011 = 520bhp, current Gp2 = 580bhp)

This would immediately bring in a raft of manufacturers to the series.

[duke_toaster]

Wouldn't that be pretty much Formula Nippon engines plus a turbo option? I'd allow bigger lumps myself (as I said, 4000cc for NAs and 2700cc for turbos) to let in current engines, smaller engines could be allowed in. Under LMP1 2011 possibly the restrictor plates could be junked and replace with rev limiters?

[johntt]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

Wouldn't that be pretty much Formula Nippon engines plus a turbo option? I'd allow bigger lumps myself (as I said, 4000cc for NAs and 2700cc for turbos) to let in current engines, smaller engines could be allowed in. Under LMP1 2011 possibly the restrictor plates could be junked and replace with rev limiters?

I hadn't thought of it that way I would see it as a way of gradually making it a non-spec series. De-spec the drivetrains, then the chassis, then the tyres, then the fuel etc. Rather than hitting the team's budgets all at once with totally-new totally-open everything.

Personally I think air restrictors are a better way than rev limiters, it stops cars smacking into a limiter on long straights and damaging the engine and it allows some more flexibility into engine design and characteristics (i.e. the torque curve etc) which should lead to better racing e.g. Engine A has torque and is quicker out of the corner, but lacks the top end that Engine B has.

Also by sharing engines with LMP1, and in the case of the 3.4l NA engines, FNippon and Super GT, you will give manufacturers some decent economies of scale.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by johntt

I hadn't thought of it that way I would see it as a way of gradually making it a non-spec series. De-spec the drivetrains, then the chassis, then the tyres, then the fuel etc. Rather than hitting the team's budgets all at once with totally-new totally-open everything.

I think it would be best to de-spec the chassis and engines at the same time. I still think that control tyres are a good idea though.

Personally I think air restrictors are a better way than rev limiters, it stops cars smacking into a limiter on long straights and damaging the engine and it allows some more flexibility into engine design and characteristics (i.e. the torque curve etc) which should lead to better racing e.g. Engine A has torque and is quicker out of the corner, but lacks the top end that Engine B has.

Just a thought, doesn't really matter significantly.

Also by sharing engines with LMP1, and in the case of the 3.4l NA engines, FNippon and Super GT, you will give manufacturers some decent economies of scale.

Perhaps FNippon could be tempted to adopt these rules? It would be a good thing if FNippon was morphed in to the Asian F2 conference with GP2 being replaced by the European conference, the season ended with a world final.

[NaBUru38]

The problem of de-restricting car rules is costs escalades. They can only be stopped with performance balancing. If all pieces perform the same, teams will choose the cheapest.

[mountainstar]

I think what we need is a modern F5000. Modern monocoque, simple parts, off the shelf crate 5.0 engines. No flash electronics or aero.

F1 is now so business racing in far off places that locals need something to cheer and enjoy some decent single seater racing.

Superleague however at least for now, I really enjoy that. I like the Panoz car, the V-12 and the racing. I think it's going to go from strength to strength and will fill a niche in the marketplace, much like the IRC has done for the WRC.