Is Jenson a better driver than Lewis?

[beau1]

Originally Posted by Paulaweybridge

I was just replying to beau 1's comment: (there arn't many incidents I can think of when he has taken people out).... although he took himself out instead of JV ...

Simple reason why I said that, he wasn't trying to overtake JV, he was being overly agressive in defensive driving. As for the Damon situation in 1994, well that was 50/50. What people tend to forget is that Damon took Michael out of 2-3 races in 1995 and no-one batted an eyelid.
Beside those are 2 or 3 examples (if we include Montoya in 2004 - Monaco) when Michael has removed himself from the race due to misjudged defensive driving in the space of 10 years. Compare this with King Hamilton of overtaking who has managed to ruin his race and the races of others in at least 4 of the last 14 races due to misjudged overtaking.

[Born Racer]

Fascinating thread and some great answers. My contribution for now will be minimal. Yes, Jenson's putting the result's in, but better than Hamilton? No way. Ultimately, Hamilton's better but I agree he has to get the results in.

Jenson though can be a little underwhelming at times. He slips back in the races. However, he makes the best of the talent he has and I think as Super Hans and some others said, he has vindicated himself with his move to McLaren. Did Hamilton used to have so many incidents pre-F1? From what I've seen, no.

In Canada, he totally misjudged outbraking Webber into Turn 1, but he was rather innocent in the Button incident.

Originally Posted by beau1

Simple reason why I said that, he wasn't trying to overtake JV, he was being overly agressive in defensive driving. As for the Damon situation in 1994, well that was 50/50. What people tend to forget is that Damon took Michael out of 2-3 races in 1995 and no-one batted an eyelid.
Beside those are 2 or 3 examples (if we include Montoya in 2004 - Monaco) when Michael has removed himself from the race due to misjudged defensive driving in the space of 10 years. Compare this with King Hamilton of overtaking who has managed to ruin his race and the races of others in at least 4 of the last 14 races due to misjudged overtaking.

The key difference was that Schumacher probably chopped Damon deliberately while Damon's crashes in 1995 were just big misjudgements.

[dsg]

Its pretty clear Jenson is smarter (so is the average box of hammers) but few would deny that Lewis probably has more natural talent than any driver on the grid.

[Louis Agilais]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

The key difference was that Schumacher probably chopped Damon deliberately while Damon's crashes in 1995 were just big misjudgements.

well, that's just you judging intentions. What do we know about drivers intentions? We know one thing about Damon Hill's: he's the only one of whom has been said he told his team principal that if his teammate attacked him he would "have him off" threatening to turn an historic 1-2 for Jordan into 2 DNF's...
(Spa 1998)

But, what do we know, those words were probably a misjudgement from poor Damon...

[Born Racer]

He did say that. But would he have done it?

It seems fairly obvious that Schumacher's taken out two people to win world championships.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Louis Agilais

well, that's just you judging intentions. What do we know about drivers intentions? We know one thing about Damon Hill's: he's the only one of whom has been said he told his team principal that if his teammate attacked him he would "have him off" threatening to turn an historic 1-2 for Jordan into 2 DNF's...
(Spa 1998)

But, what do we know, those words were probably a misjudgement from poor Damon...

Originally Posted by Born Racer

He did say that. But would he have done it?

He didn't say that exactly, he said they "could" both go off, he didn't say for definately that he'd take Ralf out. What he did do was put the ball in EJ's court, but i also think it was fair of him to ask the question as he had a massive lead cut short by the safety car, due to Fisi's accident.

[Mr V]

Actually he sais they could end up with nothing, Eddie's choice. At no time did he say he'd have him off.

youtube link

[herowassenna]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Did Hamilton used to have so many incidents pre-F1? From what I've seen, no.

I'd change that slightly. Did LH have as many incidents pre Button as team-mate??

I take my hat off to Button for the bravery of his move to Mclaren. But I wouldn't say he's a better driver than Lewis.
Lewis can win with a dominant car and a car that's not completely set up perfectly.

Button is notorious for needing the car perfectly set up for him to deliver. Someone mentioned his 2009 season completely out-classing Barrichello. Yes he did early season, but when the car was changed and it suited Rubens more, Button didn't win another race..

I'd imagine that his "famous" smooth style benefits driving in the wet too, but if I was a team boss, my selection of drivers would be Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel

To counter a previous post about Stewart being the quickest of his era. I disagree, he was the most complete driver and undoubtedly one of the all time greats, but fastest during his career was Rindt and Peterson, they were recognised as such. Very rarely has the fastest driver of any era also been the most complete. The closest I would say to achieve that was Senna and maybe Schumi.
Tyrrell?? Before Ken built his own cars, he raced Matras with which Stewart won his 1st WDC. They were as good as anyone, the only big teams at the time were Ferrari and Lotus. Even then they weren't comparable to anything in Formula 1 to Formula 3 now.

[beau1]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Fascinating thread and some great answers. My contribution for now will be minimal. Yes, Jenson's putting the result's in, but better than Hamilton? No way. Ultimately, Hamilton's better but I agree he has to get the results in.

Jenson though can be a little underwhelming at times. He slips back in the races. However, he makes the best of the talent he has and I think as Super Hans and some others said, he has vindicated himself with his move to McLaren. Did Hamilton used to have so many incidents pre-F1? From what I've seen, no.

In Canada, he totally misjudged outbraking Webber into Turn 1, but he was rather innocent in the Button incident.

The key difference was that Schumacher probably chopped Damon deliberately while Damon's crashes in 1995 were just big misjudgements.

Misjudgements or deliberate crashes they are both cases of bad driving standards. What about when Damon deliberately held up Schumacher at Suzuka 1997 when Michael was trying to lap him? You can't judge one and excuse the other, especially when we have already established that MS is a pretty good overtaker.

[Louis Agilais]

Originally Posted by Mr V

He didn't say that exactly, he said they "could" both go off, he didn't say for definately that he'd take Ralf out. What he did do was put the ball in EJ's court, but i also think it was fair of him to ask the question as he had a massive lead cut short by the safety car, due to Fisi's accident.

That's not what Eddie Jordan said (post-commentary BBC Germany 2010 talking about team orders, he said: "Damon said: «if he tries to pass, I'm gonna have him off»"

he does seem to have said it like you post it, if we are gonna trust this documetary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykI39M27y10

I would say that from a Eddie Jordan's perspective it's the same has saying he would have him off..

You wanna know what I think? that 95% of the times one guy is taken out, it's on purpose, inclunding all the examples throughout this thread. but there you go, we are again talking about intentions, we can never know them, only the driver himself.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Louis Agilais

That's not what Eddie Jordan said (post-commentary BBC Germany 2010 talking about team orders, he said: "Damon said: «if he tries to pass, I'm gonna have him off»"

I wouldn't take something that Eddie say's, 12 years after the event as fact.

[Louis Agilais]

Nobody is; i'm just adding bits to the discussion

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

On the subject of ill judged we may also consider the Monaco, Montoya safety car incident.

That was caused by Montoya suddenly braking behind the safety car,and yes Schumacher did get caught!

One of the most disgraceful incidents was Coulthard deliberately brake testing and taking Schumacher out of the 1998 Belgium GP as Schumacher came to lap him!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeAuQ2Xem4Q

[Louis Agilais]

the ones caused by someone being lapped are the really disgraceful ones, that's truth.

[beau1]

Originally Posted by wnut

That was caused by Montoya suddenly braking behind the safety car,and yes Schumacher did get caught!

One of the most disgraceful incidents was Coulthard deliberately brake testing and taking Schumacher out of the 1998 Belgium GP as Schumacher came to lap him!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeAuQ2Xem4Q

I agree what Coulthard did in 1998 was wrong. However, it was Michael slamming on the brakes in the tunnel in Monaco 2004 and Montoya was caught out behind him and had no option other than to hit him.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by wnut

One of the most disgraceful incidents was Coulthard deliberately brake testing and taking Schumacher out of the 1998 Belgium GP as Schumacher came to lap him!

I'm sorry, but there is no way that DC would deliberately brake test anyone like that. He slowed to let Schumacher past, Scumacher didn't see him properly.

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by Mr V

I'm sorry, but there is no way that DC would deliberately brake test anyone like that. He slowed to let Schumacher past, Scumacher didn't see him properly.

Yes, there's an awful lot of revisionism going on here. It was a dumb move by Coulthard (slowing on the racing line in heavy rain) but it was in no way a deliberate attempt to take Schumacher out.

[Louis Agilais]

Originally Posted by Mr V

I'm sorry, but there is no way that DC would deliberately brake test anyone like that. He slowed to let Schumacher past, Scumacher didn't see him properly.

well, you're the King of Knowing the Drivers Intentions, so you must be right

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by Louis Agilais

well, you're the King of Knowing the Drivers Intentions, so you must be right

Nobody can read a driver's mind. But all Mr V is doing is exactly what you were doing - assigning an intention to Couthard's actions. The only difference is, with even Schumacher now accepting that Coulthard meant no harm, Mr V has the experts on his side.

[garcon]

Originally Posted by wnut

One of the most disgraceful incidents was Coulthard deliberately brake testing and taking Schumacher out of the 1998 Belgium GP as Schumacher came to lap him!

It's really, really difficult to answer that without attacking the poster.

I guess I'll have to be content with asking why do you follow motorsport when you clearly know nothing whatsoever about it?

[Louis Agilais]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

Nobody can read a driver's mind. But all Mr V is doing is exactly what you were doing - assigning an intention to Couthard's actions. The only difference is, with even Schumacher now accepting that Coulthard meant no harm, Mr V has the experts on his side.

Sorry, no, I didn't (assigned intention to Coulthard). And no, Schumacher accepting also doesn't say anything to us about the other's intentions, after all Schumi's an human being, like the rest of us (he can't read intentions).

[GolddustMini]

Originally Posted by Louis Agilais

You wanna know what I think? that 95% of the times one guy is taken out, it's on purpose, inclunding all the examples throughout this thread. but there you go, we are again talking about intentions, we can never know them, only the driver himself.

you honestly believe that?

why do you watch this sport then?

[garcon]

I've had enough of this inane nonsense.

Way off the thread topic too.

Closed.