[Driver] [History] Dominant Drivers

[chunterer]

The thinking behind the super dominant qualifier versus the super dominant race driver is very interesting.

Using phoenix and shummy's analysis so far; Senna, perhaps the outright quickest driver of all time was then, a master of the pole lap, but invariably he would also be able to lap consistently quickly over an entire race distance which one would assume meant lots of FL's. Schu I guess was very similar in that respect.

Prost wasn't always mega quickest in qualy, but was always a threat over 70 laps.

The major variable here is once again the car, and what level of driver was/is in it.

Montoya in 2002 offers a different perspective. A shed load of poles, quick driver, powerful engine. But in the race fell backwards because the car ate tyres and couldn't maintain the single lap/short run speed.

This can lead to the sort of speculation that drives us up the wall, like for example, had Montoya in 2002 been in a simiarly quick car that allowed him the poles, but also maintained quality through a race, what would that have resulted in?

The same kind of thing could be asked about former dominant driver and current Merc driver Schuey. If he was in a Red Bull, just how easily would he find it to continue adding to the staggering amount of poles, and race win conversions he had managed up until the end of 2006?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Brundle was often ahead of Schumacher in races in 1992 and gave him a reasonable challenge. Brundle could easily have won Spa had he spotted the tyre-change moment like Schumy did.

A Brundle of 1984/85 vintage would have been been a considerably more consistent force against Schu than the 1992 one as well I'll venture?

[phoenix]

Pole masters:

1992 Nigel Mansell Williams Renault 14
1993 Alain Prost Williams Renault 13
1988 Ayrton Senna McLaren Honda 13
1999 Mika Hakkinen McLaren Mercedes 11
2001 Michael Schumacher Ferrari Ferrari 11
1990 Ayrton Senna McLaren Honda 10
1997 Jacques Villeneuve Williams Renault 10
2010 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull Renault 10


Fastest lap masters:

2004 Michael Schumacher Ferrari Ferrari 10
1992 Nigel Mansell Williams Renault 8
1994 Michael Schumacher Benetton Ford 8
1995 Michael Schumacher Benetton Renault 8
2002 Michael Schumacher Ferrari Ferrari 7
1993 Alain Prost Williams Renault 6
1999 Mika Hakkinen McLaren Mercedes 6
1998 Mika Hakkinen McLaren Mercedes 6

Wins out of championship races:

1952 Alberto Ascari Ferrari Ferrari 75.00%
2004 Michael Schumacher Ferrari Ferrari 72.22%
2011 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull Renault 71.43% (so far!!!)
1963 Jim Clark Lotus Climax 70.00%
1954 Juan Manuel Fangio Maserati Maserati 66.67%
2002 Michael Schumacher Ferrari Ferrari 64.71%
1965 Jim Clark Lotus Climax 60.00%


The above are simply by quantity, with no reference or weighting which reflects the number of races in the championship year.

[beau1]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Brundle was often ahead of Schumacher in races in 1992 and gave him a reasonable challenge. Brundle could easily have won Spa had he spotted the tyre-change moment like Schumy did.

The point is he didn't win the race nor did he finish ahead in the championship, which perhaps he should have done being the more experienced driver. Hamilton has been ahead of Button most of this season, but who has the most points? Schumacher was on for some results in 2010 but still got slated when the car let him down. I'm sorry but results matter at the end of the day.

Schumacher was nowhere near his best back in 1992 thus Brundle was realistically nowhere near him.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by beau1

The point is he didn't win the race nor did he finish ahead in the championship, which perhaps he should have done being the more experienced driver. Hamilton has been ahead of Button most of this season, but who has the most points? Schumacher was on for some results in 2010 but still got slated when the car let him down. I'm sorry but results matter at the end of the day.

Schumacher was nowhere near his best back in 1992 thus Brundle was realistically nowhere near him.

I agree that ultimately Martin was not anywhere near as talented as Michael, but I felt that your comments on 1992 were a bit wide of the mark. Schumacher last year was completely put in the shade by Rosberg though. Whatever results he would have got, Rosberg would have got more of them.

[Born Racer]

Interesting. Fastest lap really is insignificant now. The most important fastest lap is pole.

[beau1]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

I agree that ultimately Martin was not anywhere near as talented as Michael, but I felt that your comments on 1992 were a bit wide of the mark. Schumacher last year was completely put in the shade by Rosberg though. Whatever results he would have got, Rosberg would have got more of them.

I agree. I was just stating that results matter rather than who did what during races. The race is over and the points are counted after the chequered flag falls, not before.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by beau1

I agree. I was just stating that results matter rather than who did what during races. The race is over and the points are counted after the chequered flag falls, not before.

Statistically the results matter for historians, but to me the most important thing is who did what, with what, and against whom regardless of where they finish and how many points they get.

I've always been mostly interested in how much promise a driver has, how quick a driver ultimately is and most of all how much overtaking/racing they are capable as well as thing like simply appreciating a driver's style and methods, rather than how many points they accrue.

I'm also interested in how much a team might be built around a particular driver which is absolutely crucial when comparing teammates, and how much things like that have been obviously covered up in the past.

Different things metter to different people I guess?

[beau1]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Statistically the results matter for historians, but to me the most important thing is who did what, with what, and against whom regardless of where they finish and how many points they get.

I've always been mostly interested in how much promise a driver has, how quick a driver ultimately is and most of all how much overtaking/racing they are capable as well as thing like simply appreciating a driver's style and methods, rather than how many points they accrue.

I'm also interested in how much a team might be built around a particular driver which is absolutely crucial when comparing teammates, and how much things like that have been obviously covered up in the past.

Different things metter to different people I guess?

Indeed, they do. The fact that I just finished a History degree probably explains my viewpoint on matters .

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by beau1

Indeed, they do. The fact that I just finished a History degree probably explains my viewpoint on matters .

[strider]

Originally Posted by phoenix

Fastest lap masters:

2004 Michael Schumacher Ferrari Ferrari 10
1992 Nigel Mansell Williams Renault 8
1994 Michael Schumacher Benetton Ford 8
1995 Michael Schumacher Benetton Renault 8
2002 Michael Schumacher Ferrari Ferrari 7
1993 Alain Prost Williams Renault 6
1999 Mika Hakkinen McLaren Mercedes 6
1998 Mika Hakkinen McLaren Mercedes 6

The above are simply by quantity, with no reference or weighting which reflects the number of races in the championship year.

The strange thing about Fastest Laps is that Kimi twice scored 10 in a season, with McLaren in 2005 and Ferrari in 2008, but not in his championship year.

[Schummy]

In some seasons poles are a better predictor for points than fastest laps and in others fastest laps is better. The issue is complicated.

In the Prost-Senna years, typically Senna had massively more poles than Prost and Prost some more fastest laps, but and the end of the day they had similar amount of points. A particularly striking situation happened in 1990 (Prost in Ferrari): Ayrton had 10 poles against Prost 0 poles, however the final tally of points was 78-73 with 6 wins to 5 wins. Thus, poles sometimes can be quite misleading (even when those two shared the same car at McLaren).

This season fastest laps are further convoluted by the peculiar characteristics of the tyres. In the turbo era, fastest laps could be also misleading because the (in)famous turbo pressure switch. I remember Jerez'86 when Fabi, one of the slow cars there, entered pits very early with some problem, then he went to the track again and produced some laps faster than the leading drivers (with much faster cars). Obviously he raised turbo pressure because anyway he didn't have anything to lose.

This kind of issue has been raised sometimes in the "Team mates comparison" thread; for example, these recent days, but also in former seasons.

[csirl]

Dominant drivers are usually a product of dominant teams. Since the 1980s, the car has been the bigger factor that the driver in winning championships. The percentage wins that the various champions have largely depends on whether they had a good team mate - as often the team mate was the only real competition. e.g in 1988 Senna only won 50% of the races (8), but is team mate, Prost won 7. Both were closely matched. Considering that McLaren won 15 of the 16 races relatively comfortably, either one of them could have won a much higher percentage if they had a weaker team mate.

[Schummy]

Originally Posted by csirl

Dominant drivers are usually a product of dominant teams. Since the 1980s, the car has been the bigger factor that the driver in winning championships. The percentage wins that the various champions have largely depends on whether they had a good team mate - as often the team mate was the only real competition. e.g in 1988 Senna only won 50% of the races (8), but is team mate, Prost won 7. Both were closely matched. Considering that McLaren won 15 of the 16 races relatively comfortably, either one of them could have won a much higher percentage if they had a weaker team mate.

Absolutely right. When we speak of drivers results we have to mean the couple driver-car. Senna or Prost had reaped a golden era of results for three years or so if they had been as a "solo" driver in McLaren (Prost had not changed to Ferrari in 1990).

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Schummy

Absolutely right. When we speak of drivers results we have to mean the couple driver-car. Senna or Prost had reaped a golden era of results for three years or so if they had been as a "solo" driver in McLaren (Prost had not changed to Ferrari in 1990).

Jeez, yeah, the mouth waters at the prospects had Prost continued alongside Senna at McLaren, or had Mansell stayed at Williams alongside Prost in 1993 for example!

Back specifically to the last point, the opposite applies to Schuey in that he did have an inferior/defacto no2 teammate all the time at Ferrari, and obviously at Benetoon before that so how much difference to the wins stats would there have been had he had a driver alongside him with parity?