Fathers and Sons

[grumpy1]

Valintinos dad also raced in rally I think.

The Grumpy1

[Fish_Flake]

Alberto Ascari's father was a Grand Prix racer of repute in the pre-war days.

[Kicking-back]

Patrick Bourdais is Sebastian's father, yes.

[Raglanparade]

Gilles was a better driver then Jaques. All because Jacques has a WDC means nothing when Gilles was arguably one of the last gentlemen racers.

Graham Hill i feel was better then Damon. Much more dangerous Era in the 60's and Graham survived the racing to die in a plane crash. Not as good as Jim Clark in the same team but still managed two WDC's in a dangerous era.

Michael Andretti was no where near Mario. Michael was in f1 but was hardly quick, even in the top machinery he often struggled in Champ Cars. Mario has the ability, even at his age now, to be fast in any race car, Michael never really had that.

I tend to agree that sons never live up to there fathers feats.

[Snrub]

I think generally the sport has become more competitive so I would rate things relative to their times.

Gilles could have won the championship over Scheckter, he made a gentleman's agreement. I think he was better than his son.

Speaker of Scheckter, Tomas appears to be a pretty decent driver.

Graham was clearly an excellent driver, but the obvious comparisons are to the likes of Clark and Stewart! I think Daemon tends to be underrated so I don't know who I'd say is better.

Michael is hardly as bad as his F1 performance would suggest. F1 people refuse to get their heads around that. (for the record I'm not a Michael fan!) Look at Michael's last couple of years in CART. He had some world class performances and then at other times he purely stunk. I don't believe it was because he was physically incapable of it. If anything his CART record was severely diminished due to his equipment.

I'd be quiet interested to read that article Liz, can you point me in the right direction?

[marcus]

well I can think of one guy who has followed his dad very successfully , ok maybe not in F1 but in other forms you would have to say David Brabham has been very successfull in his career.

David sadly never made it in F1 but boy is he a fantastic sportscar and touring car driver , you better believe it.

His brothers have had good success as well Gary and Geoff , but of the 3 I think David has followed in his dads footsteps the most (just wish he could have won 3 titles as well !!!)

[Mattracer]

Damon Hill was a chip off the old block particularly in terms of his disposition and temperament.

[KA]

Originally posted by BSchneiderFan
I think there is a Belgian father-and-son duo by the name of Martin, but I don't know a great deal about them;

If you're thinking of Jean-Michel and Philippe Martin who were successful touring car (won Spa 24 hours a couple of times sharing a Ford Capri) and sportscar racers in the 70's/80's, I think they're brothers, not father and son- can anyone confirm that?

[BootsOntheSide]

Manfred Winkehock's son (and therefore Joachim's nephew) is racing in the DTM this year. I'd also forgot that both Dale Jarrett and his dad Ned have won NASCAR championships. Also, Michel Jourdain Jr's dad and uncle were early CART racers, among other things.

ANother related question, why do so many offspring and siblings go into racing successfully? Are they attracted to it by having other family members involved, or are the skills required in racing very specific,a dn thus often genetic?

[Hazza]

Originally posted by marcus
well I can think of one guy who has followed his dad very successfully , ok maybe not in F1 but in other forms you would have to say David Brabham has been very successfull in his career.

David sadly never made it in F1 but boy is he a fantastic sportscar and touring car driver , you better believe it.

His brothers have had good success as well Gary and Geoff , but of the 3 I think David has followed in his dads footsteps the most (just wish he could have won 3 titles as well !!!)

Marcus, you ripper If you want proof of David's tallents, look what happened when he and Jan Magnussen joined Ferrari in ALMS...

Anyway, as *I* was going to say the 2nd Generation Brabhams have a mighty fine CV behind them!


What about Kyle Petty?
Steven Richards isn't exactly ripping it up down under either...

Thats all I can think of...

[santori]

Not F1 but the Campbells were both good.
The Ascaris, of course, though only Alberto raced in F1 (rather than GPs).

[santori]

Perhpas the Frentzens will produce the first brother-sister winning team. And there's a younger brother of Nelsinho on the way.

[Liz]

Originally posted by Snrub
Michael is hardly as bad as his F1 performance would suggest. F1 people refuse to get their heads around that. (for the record I'm not a Michael fan!) Look at Michael's last couple of years in CART. He had some world class performances and then at other times he purely stunk. I don't believe it was because he was physically incapable of it. If anything his CART record was severely diminished due to his equipment.

I'd be quiet interested to read that article Liz, can you point me in the right direction?

The article was in the National Post "Drivers Edge" section. You ought to find it by searching for "Patriarch" which is what they referred to Mario as in the title.

[KC]

There is not way to compare sons and fathers unless they are racing against one another. Comparing Gilles to Jacques is like comparing apples and oranges. Does anyone think that Gilles would not have told Bernie and any of today's team principals to stick their car up their collective arses if he raced today? He would hated today's neutered F1. I bet Jacques would have raced a hell of a lot like his dad in 1970. Anyone that followed his career in CART could see that.

How does the son live up to legendary status that every dead racing driver earns? Would Gilles be loved to the same degree if he was still alive and had not won a WDC? Hard to say. I love the way he drove and I see a lot of this in Jacques.

[Emfa]

Add Stan and Alan Jones to the list. I believe Stan had a reasonable amount of success at home (before my time!), but nowhere near the success on the world stage as his son.

On the Australian scene, Hazza mentioned Steve Richards. You could also add Dick & Steve Johnson, Russell & Mark Skaife, Bo & Glen Seton - just for starters.

If you took the time to compile a list, it would probably be huge - and I suspect that it would probably be fairly evenly balanced between who was more successful.

[ASCII Man]

Originally posted by KA
If you're thinking of Jean-Michel and Philippe Martin who were successful touring car (won Spa 24 hours a couple of times sharing a Ford Capri) and sportscar racers in the 70's/80's, I think they're brothers, not father and son- can anyone confirm that?

Yep, they're brothers.
Here's a Schweeetttt pic of their Porsche 936C they raced at the 1000Km's of the Nürbürgring in 1982.

[santori]

Yeah, Stan Jones was a great rival of Jack Brabham in Australia and said to be just as good but he didn't make the trip to Europe.

[Jordi]

KC hit it perfectly...

[senna12]

I also agree with KC. Unfortunately for Jacques, it is/was difficult to produce memorable moments like Estoril in inferior equipment.

[Mal]

Gilles was a legend long before he was killed, and Gilles produced many memorable moments in inferior equipment including at Jarama where he won in the 'pig' and his drive was described by Nigel Roebuck as the greatest he has ever seen. Also name be another driver who has been 11 seconds faster than anyone else in practice.
Jacques is good and righfully famous but as a driver he is not in the same league.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by KA
If you're thinking of Jean-Michel and Philippe Martin who were successful touring car (won Spa 24 hours a couple of times sharing a Ford Capri) and sportscar racers in the 70's/80's, I think they're brothers, not father and son- can anyone confirm that?

Well I've always known them as the "Martin Brothers".

But what about Derek and Justin Bell?

[D-Type]

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Stirling Moss

His father, Alfred, raced at Brooklands and later Indianapolis in 1924 and his mother, Aileen competed in trials.

Clearly a case of the son doing better than the father.

I'm not sure about the Ascari's. Antonio won 2 grands Prix at a time when there were only three a year whilst Alberto won numerous GP's and 2 world championships. Given the respect Alberto got from his peers I'll have to give him the vote.

Villeneuve's - both great drivers. Again different eras. Gilles had the raw speed and that certain something about him. Jacques is also good - remember his F1 debut at Melbourne. On skill I'll vote for Jacques, on charisma Gilles - call it a draw

Damon and Graham Hill - on balance I'll vote for Graham.

Brabhams - definitely dad

Andrettis - most definitely Mario

Fittipaldis - as Christian is Wilson's son I have to vote for him.

Ickx - definitely Jacky, the son

back in prehistory, Sammy Davis was far more successful than his son Colin

Piquets, Rosbergs, Scheckters et al - too soon to say

Unsers, Pettys and other NASCAR and USAC/CART dynasties - I don't know enough to say

As to who is better out of fathers and sons - nobody can say

[santori]

Mmm, yes, the Mosses. And Stirling's sister, Pat, was a great Rally driver and married the greatest Rally driver of the time, Eric Carlsson.
Quite a gene-pool.

[Rennen]

Forget all those famous dads!...'you lot' (and F1 team bosses) should have seen the dads of Wheldon, Button, Wilson, Paffett, Franchitti, Smith, Manning, Turner, Davis and Davies...etc...Oh and me!...in action running our sons in junior karting...we were the business!

Most dads were down the pub, fishing, playing dumb ball games...having a lay-in, reading the sunday papers, watching TV or doing boring D.I.Y jobs or following their wives around the supermarket!...Or selfishly racing themselves!...WE proper dads were up at the crack of dawn or doing an all-nighter preparing our lads karts (Ex F1 daddies pay someone else) WE raced every week end tooth and nail against each other all over the country.

I ran Anthony in 42 meetings in 1991...and won 13 junior kart championships from club to the most premier British titles between 1987 to 1995...and no-one outside that karting scene knows about it!...then...every motor racing fan is an expert when our sons suddenly appeared in junior racing cars!

Famous daddies!...they wouldn't have stood a chance against any of the above father and sons combinations in karting!

[deeks6]

Originally posted by KC

How does the son live up to legendary status that every dead racing driver earns? Would Gilles be loved to the same degree if he was still alive and had not won a WDC? Hard to say. I love the way he drove and I see a lot of this in Jacques.

To the horror of lots of fans, I agree with this. Gilles was nowhere near a legend BEFORE he was killed but his spectacular style appealed to people. Putting him up with the Clarks, Sennas, Prosts, Schueys etc is simply not realism.

As for fathers and sons, in a strictly F1 sense:

Villeneuves - JV was a little smoother and did win a WDC, which I doubt that GVs exhuberant style would have allowed.
Slight nod to JV.

Brabhams - No contest, although all the sons did very well in other categories.

Andrettis - The biggest no contest of all. Mario by a mile.

Stucks - Probably dad, but I can remember some sterling drives from Hans-Joachim early in his F1 career.

Hills - I always maintain Damon is a much underrated driver but I still have to give the nod to Graham.

Fittipaldis - Wilson clearly had better drives in F1.

Parnells - Reg clearly better than Tim, who probably would have been better with a diet.

Pilettes - Slight advantage to Andre, although I recall Teddy had a lot of success later in F5000.

Jean-Louis Schlesser was a nephew of Jo (so he almost counts) but he was nowhere near as good as Jo.

As far as non F1, nobody has mentioned the Unsers Al, have they?

There are plenty of brothers who raced as well.