Frode Holte C30

[rs 200]

Originally Posted by BOY BLUNDER

I have to say Freddi's volvo does look nice would love to see ludvig in one again.

BB....

i must say he did suite that volvo ,man on a mission in that ,the focus just does not seem right now for him

[1975DCS]

Originally Posted by rs 200

i dont recall martin using transverse engine in the last escort ,i recall g box he done which had 2 front diffs so to speak on ether side of engine which still made it front to rear and reasons was cog to get engine down lower ,this was then used in the astras and sure kuypers used it or still does ,

Yeap, that is what I have read to... Lower in the bay, which was normally better accomplished in transverse WRC cars...

As far as I know, the old Kuypers Astra still uses this MSR concept and gearbox, but his latest one doesn't...

[1975DCS]

Originally Posted by tbtstt

Yeah, I appreciate that my comments on companies like RCM etc. building "bullet proof" engines is to be taken with a pinch of salt, as rallycross really ramps up the demand on the engine

There are few things making life harder for Rallycross engines:

1. An extreme amount of midrange boost (due to smaller turbo's because of restrictors)
2. ALS
3. High compression (for best throttle respons)
4. Running the engine as lean as possible to find extra bhp

[rs 200]

At the end of the day 550 hp is it out of 45mm, torque is not going to get much higher ,grip will get better so more trains on track ,

We need less rules keep it simple = more action
all the crap about f1 etc 90% never gets to help road cars ,there are to many rules in that to be broken
rallycross has followed f1 /wrc etc its all to much the same now ,
we dont want cars on rails we want sliding with no tyre squeal like we have now
my thing is
more power less grip its as simple as that .it makes the cream come to the top

[tbtstt]

I'm not sure ramping up the power in the cars is the answer, as a lot of the cars already regularly encounter problems with the engine power overwhelming drive train components. Simply ramping up the power is, in my opinion, just going to increase the chance of car failure.

Removing some of the more sophisticated diffs to give more tail out action would certainly make racing more spectacular to watch though.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by tbtstt

I'm not sure ramping up the power in the cars is the answer, as a lot of the cars already regularly encounter problems with the engine power overwhelming drive train components. Simply ramping up the power is, in my opinion, just going to increase the chance of car failure.

I'm not too sure if it would make much difference - more power would probably mean less torque so less stress on drivetrains. The unrestricted Supercars a few years ago were running bigger power than we see on Div1 cars but had much less torque. Hence there was little impact on laptimes when the cars started running with restrictors - power down, torque up.

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

I'm not too sure if it would make much difference - more power would probably mean less torque so less stress on drivetrains. The unrestricted Supercars a few years ago were running bigger power than we see on Div1 cars but had much less torque. Hence there was little impact on laptimes when the cars started running with restrictors - power down, torque up.

Good point, torque is the part breaker really, isn't it?

I wasn't watching rallycross when the bigger BHP cars were running, but the mechanical failure rate was no higher or lower then it is now?

[1975DCS]

Originally Posted by tbtstt

Simply ramping up the power is, in my opinion, just going to increase the chance of car failure.

Ofcourse that makes it a challenge! It is easier to develop a 100 bhp / 100 Nm than a 800 bhp / 800 Nm drivetrain...

I believe even without restrictors we won't see 1000 bhp rallycross cars, as it needs to be a balance between, torque, throttleresponse and horsepower. But that makes another challenge! You could see one drive building a 600 bhp / 800 Nm car and one building a 700 bhp / 700 Nm! Differences just like in the old days: low capacity, high capacity, longstroke, shortstroke, 4 cil, 5 cil, 6 cil, turbo, n/a, etc...

[The Eye]

Some pics of the C30 here

http://img684.imageshack.us/g/hljess0460.jpg/

clic on it to get the big picture

[chunder]

Inj the old days the issue was always tranmission.

When Seppo and Matti were running insane 911's I presume they just used Le Mans style boxes, Porsche boxes were always bulletproof anyway, but quite how they got the 4wd working back then when no 911 was 4wd I dont know. Remember they were running 935 engines with immense power, 700 brake was roughly there, and punctures always an issue. Watchign Matti in a 911 was amazing, he threw it about like a Beetle!

In those days there are more ingenious cars, Talbot 4wd, the Beetles with hom brewed 4wd systesm and lag happy turbo engines. Tyhen Schance and Endean came along and move it all along.

I think now tranmissions are easier to find, but torque is the big problem. I remember at Lydden there were lots of breakages and you must remember that very few international series run unlimited engines.

One of the few is the Bergrennen hillclimbs where they run Escorts and Lancia's. Some of these cars are over 600hp and 4wd on asphalt. maybe some of the ERC guys should look at guys like Andy Gabat to tranmissions?

[rx-guru]

"Myggan" Nilsson was the first with a 4WD 911, Seppo and Matti came a little later.
"Myggan" told me by then that he (and the two Finns) used the 5th and straight 911 gear to propell a drive-shaft that mounted in an upside-down BMW 2002 limited-slip diff for the front wheels. At Porsche they were laughing about his idea, but eventually even 750bhp for the BiTurbo 911s seemed to be lo limit for it.

[FIRE]

How expensive are the current Div 1 engines?

[chunder]

Haha Eddi, I love the way rallycross drivers from back then sed to modofy old tech to make a 4wd car. The Martinsen and Larsen Talbots must hvae been quite trick aswell, I remember they did the odd ERC round in 85 and were pretty quick!!

I would imagine that a modern Div 1 engine must cost upwards of 50 grand. Maybe a Cosworth is cheaper as theya re more commonplace and perhaps the tuning is a bit easier to cost and price as compared to a VW, Saab or Volvo its a relatively common engine to tune?

But the cost comes from making the engine work with the restrictor and tyres, if you watch Isachsen on board he is on the handbrake far more than a WRC man in corners you would not expect, the tyres are really damning rallycross for me right now, theya re truly rubbish.

[1975DCS]

That's what you see in the old days: a collection of selected parts and it worked in most cases! Brilliant, nowadays no one will drive with Audi quattro and BMW parts in their driveline.

I think engines are between 30-60k euro... I don't think Cosworths are cheaper, as the base engines (like anything Cosworth) are in big demand and not cheap especially not those of the WRC, RS500, 4x4 and small turbo Escort lump. But the tuning is a bit easier as it is already turbocharged en had a lot of evolutions in the past.

After the engines comes maintenance and track adjustments, so still a lot of money in one year!

[rx-guru]

BTW, I think "Myggan" took the idea from Jan de Rooy’s DAF 555 Coupé 4WD with BDA engine, as DAF Competition already used a BMW 2002 diff for the FWD of "het bultje".

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by 1975DCS

That's what you see in the old days: a collection of selected parts and it worked in most cases! Brilliant, nowadays no one will drive with Audi quattro and BMW parts in their driveline.

I think engines are between 30-60k euro... I don't think Cosworths are cheaper, as the base engines (like anything Cosworth) are in big demand and not cheap especially not those of the WRC, RS500, 4x4 and small turbo Escort lump. But the tuning is a bit easier as it is already turbocharged en had a lot of evolutions in the past.

After the engines comes maintenance and track adjustments, so still a lot of money in one year!

Hmm that's a lot of money. I expected it more around €20k~€25k.


BTW I like Holte's C30.

[1975DCS]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Hmm that's a lot of money. I expected it more around €20k~€25k.

I think you can build an 500 bhp (45mm) engine for that, but not with tricky parts like ALS, launch control and in case of Cosworths direct firing bobines.

[FIRE]

Brand of engine has to be the same (or belong to brand group, e.g. Skoda engine is allowed in Seat) as car?


Big V8 engines arenever used in top level rallycross?

[1975DCS]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Brand of engine has to be the same (or belong to brand group, e.g. Skoda engine is allowed in Seat) as car?


Big V8 engines arenever used in top level rallycross?

Both yes, there has been V8's in other (lower) classes... I think a N/A V8 would struggle because of torque, some of the current 4 cilinders are over 750 Nm even up to 840 Nm... That would require a massive N/A V8! And 3,5 liter would be the equivelent of a 2058 cc, but than you would be looking at 430 Nm max I think...

[WJM]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Brand of engine has to be the same (or belong to brand group, e.g. Skoda engine is allowed in Seat) as car?


Big V8 engines arenever used in top level rallycross?

Brand has to be the same but also the amount of cylinders must be the same as the original homologated model has. Therefore a V8 cannot be used because no roadcar is homologated with an 8 cylinder engine as far as I know.

[WJM]

Originally Posted by 1975DCS

Both yes, there has been V8's in other (lower) classes... I think a N/A V8 would struggle because of torque, some of the current 4 cilinders are over 750 Nm even up to 840 Nm... That would require a massive N/A V8! And 3,5 liter would be the equivelent of a 2058 cc, but than you would be looking at 430 Nm max I think...

When has there been a V8 in European Rallycross? I don't think it happened since the Group B era? In British Supermodified, yes, and Ludo Helvens Marcos also has a V8. But for the rest??

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by 1975DCS

Both yes, there has been V8's in other (lower) classes... I think a N/A V8 would struggle because of torque, some of the current 4 cilinders are over 750 Nm even up to 840 Nm... That would require a massive N/A V8! And 3,5 liter would be the equivelent of a 2058 cc, but than you would be looking at 430 Nm max I think...

Because of my interest in US oval racing I was more thinking on big V8's from the US. Like this one used in dirt oval racing. Of course currently these engines are not allowed so it's a bit off topic.

[1975DCS]

Originally Posted by WJM

When has there been a V8 in European Rallycross? I don't think it happened since the Group B era? In British Supermodified, yes, and Ludo Helvens Marcos also has a V8. But for the rest??

Holden Commodore... (that's why I wrote in other classes)

[1975DCS]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Because of my interest in US oval racing I was more thinking on big V8's from the US. Like this one used in dirt oval racing. Of course currently these engines are not allowed so it's a bit off topic.

That is unlikely, the max capacity is 4500 cc, which is about half that of this 8.2 liter engine... And even with 4500 cc the car must weight 1.370 kg, instead of 1.200 kg. I don't know if N/A has to be restricted (like Le Mans cars), but the turbocharged engines are by 45 mm restrictor and 1.7 capacity factor.

[David_Dempsey]

This is a picture of our Evo 5 rallycross car in Ireland. I finished 3rd overall after a hard faught championship.