Porsche GT2 domination

Garp · 31 Aug 2005, 11:45 (Ref:1395439)

With the continuing domination of Porsche in GT2.

What will be the future of GT2?
What do other Manufacturers have to do, to break this?
(can't be a money only concern)

Why doesn't Lambo develope a decent GT2 contender with their
Gallardo (or Noble, Cadillac, BMW, Bentley, Jaguar, Wiessman)
, while Porsche makes heaps of money with their GT-RSR

BSchneiderFan · 31 Aug 2005, 11:55 (Ref:1395449)

Well, Ferrari's Corse Clienti has announced it will develop the F430 as a GT2 car (seems like more backing than they ever gave to the 360), and with LNT acting as European agent for the Panoz Esperante, and rumours of a Reiter-developed Gallardo, there are non-Porsche options for 2006.

Audi R8R · 31 Aug 2005, 12:00 (Ref:1395451)

Mosler when there are enough road cars to be placed in GT2. The Balfe car has been the closest thing to the factory Porsches in FIA this year.

The Ferrari is certainly going to be quick. Noble built a car for GT3 class, don't think its up to being a GT2 contender, but would make a stunning GT3 front runner I reckon.

Lotus maybe with whatever it replaces the Esprit with?

Fogelhund · 31 Aug 2005, 12:03 (Ref:1395452)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garp

With the continuing domination of Porsche in GT2.

What will be the future of GT2?
What do other Manufacturers have to do, to break this?
(can't be a money only concern)

Well, actually it mostly is a money issue. Nobody has spent the money to compete.

Ferrari? -> Well, no development $ spent on their engines, so they can't keep up.
Panoz - closest thing in some time, but regulation changes, and testing limitations have got them behind the eight ball.
BMW - spent the money, and were competitive... until the ACO (rightly?) made them uncompetitive.

Quote:

Why doesn't Lambo develope a decent GT2 contender with their
Gallardo

They couldn't develop a decent GT1 contender, so it seems unlikely that they could do so for a GT2.

Quote:

while Porsche makes heaps of money with their GT-RSR

But that's the thing. How many cars are they actually going to be selling going forward? Their practises of supporting just one team in a series in the recent past has cost them. It is very likely that of the current ALMS teams, only two teams will be running Porsche's in 07'. Porsche should be talking now with some of its more junior teams in North America, encouraging them to move up... Farnbacher USA for example.

Ferrari has designed the 430 GTC, which should be competitive, with the right team, budget, and continued development work (which as mentioned above was lacking with the 360).

Panoz should continue to work on the Esperante.

Teams are considering running the Prodrive Aston Martin DBRS9 in GT2, which could be interesting.

Garp · 31 Aug 2005, 12:52 (Ref:1395498)

Still, Prodrive managed to have a closed businesscase with the Ferrari 550.
They had put x amount of dollars in and made more that x dollars out of it.
While there was no factory backing with a car that was not the best package to start with.

How can Prodrive made money out of a race car. While ferrari (and others) loses on it.
What do Prodrive and Porsche do making money and the others losing it. (Only winning??) It looks again "i takes a big fortune in racing to make a small fortune"

BSchneiderFan · 31 Aug 2005, 12:57 (Ref:1395503)

Prodrive's Ferrari 550 programme has been mightily impressive; partly, I suppose, a lesson to other preparation firms, but also a testament to Prodrive's experience and resources. Wonder if the Aston Martins will be as successful financially.

vs346 · 31 Aug 2005, 13:21 (Ref:1395521)

A lot of it has to do with history. Porsche has a deep tradition and presence in sportscars, and they have the facilities and resources to help contribute to a successfull and money-making venture. Same with Prodrive, their facilities and team-running knowledge goes back to WRC and F1. Richards can put a business plan together in his sleep and in the case of the 550 and DBR9, they were able to utilise all resources of a huge company like Prodrive, from wind-tunnels, to the best motor-coach chef in motorsports.

Think of it like Man Utd. and/or Arsenal. Those teams have the foundations laid after years and years of success, they now have the credibility, finances, and power to recruit the best players in the world etc.

Same thing applies to Prodrive, and Porsche.

I'm trying to think of a team or manufacturer that has that same kind clout as Prodrive or Porsche, but only Joest and Oreca (maybe Champion) come to mind, at least in present day sportscar racing.

Nordic · 31 Aug 2005, 15:09 (Ref:1395578)

Quote:

Originally Posted by vs346

I'm trying to think of a team or manufacturer that has that same kind clout as Prodrive or Porsche, but only Joest and Oreca (maybe Champion) come to mind, at least in present day sportscar racing.

Maybe Corvette and Panoz have a bit of clout as well. I also think, if say, Honda for example made serious noises about joining the sports car ranks the ACO would sit up and take notice.

The reason the Porsche is a success, beyond being the best car out there, is that alot of teams have grown up in the porsche family, they feel comfortable with car and know how it works. The cars have a good 2nd hand value compared to other GT2's. Therefore the more teams that run the cars, the more money Porsche AG make directly from it and the succesful image it creates so more money is spent on it and it goes still faster.

As for Porsche favoring one team, it has always been that way, Kremer and Joest in the past have been given drawings and parts not available to other teams for 935's and 936's. Penske's 917 was a bit special compared to the other cars running at the same time.
I don't belive all 956/62's where equal either.

BSchneiderFan · 31 Aug 2005, 16:08 (Ref:1395617)

Yet look at the success of Sebah with a very elderly (albeit updated) 911 GT3-R.

The Badger · 31 Aug 2005, 16:32 (Ref:1395638)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garp

With the continuing domination of Porsche in GT2.What will be the future of GT2?
What do other Manufacturers have to do, to break this?
(can't be a money only concern)

Do the same or better than Porsche . They have a racing department that is vary strong with years behind it . Although sometimes i think even they loose direction !

cmk · 31 Aug 2005, 16:38 (Ref:1395647)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garp

Still, Prodrive managed to have a closed businesscase with the Ferrari 550.
They had put x amount of dollars in and made more that x dollars out of it.
While there was no factory backing with a car that was not the best package to start with.

While I'm sure Prodrive got a return on their investment, was the entire project actually profitable? I suppose it might be by now, since CARE is still renting out several chassis for racing this year, but it's important to remember that Frederic Dor poured a huge amount of personal funding into the project and then failed to pitch it to Ferrari successfully, followed by a failure to actually sell any of the cars when they were trying to. Perhaps if someone (Lawrence Tomlinson looked to be on that path) is willing to put the cash into a GT2 car out of passion, a contender will emerge.

Fogelhund · 31 Aug 2005, 17:28 (Ref:1395679)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BSchneiderFan

Yet look at the success of Sebah with a very elderly (albeit updated) 911 GT3-R.

Which speaks more about their level of competition, than anything else. Quite simply, the ALMS has 7 of the top 10 competitive GT2 class cars on the planet. Bring that GT3-R over here and see what happens.... though Sebah has done wonderfully well with what they have.

**Dani Filth** · 31 Aug 2005, 17:33 (Ref:1395685)

ALMS has the most competetitive GT2 field .. imho . from what i saw

cmk · 31 Aug 2005, 20:38 (Ref:1395855)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Which speaks more about their level of competition, than anything else. Quite simply, the ALMS has 7 of the top 10 competitive GT2 class cars on the planet. Bring that GT3-R over here and see what happens.... though Sebah has done wonderfully well with what they have.

True, the competition (interclass) in LMES GT2 is fantastic, but it's because all the players are running on a lower level. Sebah's work with that car has been excellent though. I know they're getting help from Porsche (Lieb, plus perhaps the operating budget given the lack of sponsors?) but it's not like the car is an RSR in an -R shell, upgraded though it's been.

It does look kinda funny running the big RSR rear rubber though! GT3-R drag car, anyone?

JAG · 1 Sep 2005, 18:35 (Ref:1396634)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garp

With the continuing domination of Porsche in GT2.

What will be the future of GT2?
What do other Manufacturers have to do, to break this?
(can't be a money only concern)

Why doesn't Lambo develope a decent GT2 contender with their
Gallardo (or Noble, Cadillac, BMW, Bentley, Jaguar, Wiessman)
, while Porsche makes heaps of money with their GT-RSR

Arn't Maserati building a works GT2 car for ACO events?

Arn't Prodrive homologating the DBRS9 for GT2

Hasn't Panoz just signed a European deal with LNT

Hasn't Ferrari just announced the 430 GTC.

Can't see any reason why all of the above will not put up a good fight in the coming years.

Fogelhund · 1 Sep 2005, 19:24 (Ref:1396675)

Aren't Maserati building a works GT2 car for ACO events? That seems to be speculation more than solidd

Aren't Prodrive homologating the DBRS9 for GT2 It is what a few teams hope happens. But, nothing solid.

Hasn't Panoz just signed a European deal with LNT Yes

Hasn't Ferrari just announced the 430 GTC. Yes, but the 360GTC didn't receive much support. If it had, this thread would likely not exist.

**Dani Filth** · 1 Sep 2005, 19:29 (Ref:1396682)

wasn't a G2 Maserati at Spa 24h ??

the 360GT . did win the FIA GT GT3 class .. and the 360GTC was the fastest car in LMES at Silverstone in the dry i seem to remember ... is not a that bad a car .

TheNewBob · 1 Sep 2005, 19:37 (Ref:1396687)

the FIA GT GT3 class? crikey are you able to see into the future? I'd market that ability, myself, lol

**Dani Filth** · 1 Sep 2005, 19:50 (Ref:1396696)

it was GT3 - N-GT . back then

TheNewBob · 1 Sep 2005, 20:00 (Ref:1396710)

uh huh... and may I ask what they won and in which year? lol I gathered it was N-GT but exactly what it was in N-GT you haven't mentioned yet hehe

Fogelhund · 1 Sep 2005, 20:14 (Ref:1396722)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dani Filth

wasn't a G2 Maserati at Spa 24h ??

the 360GT . did win the FIA GT GT3 class .. and the 360GTC was the fastest car in LMES at Silverstone in the dry i seem to remember ... is not a that bad a car .

Is a G2 Maserati an ACO compliant GT2 car? - No

The Ferrari 360 GTC was competitive when it came out... then received no support, particularly on the engine side.

LMES - ? Please read the earlier part of this thread. Yes, the LMES, the same place where a GT3-R is leading the championship.

**FIRE** · 1 Sep 2005, 20:23 (Ref:1396730)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAG

Arn't Maserati building a works GT2 car for ACO events?

Arn't Prodrive homologating the DBRS9 for GT2

Hasn't Panoz just signed a European deal with LNT

Hasn't Ferrari just announced the 430 GTC.

Can't see any reason why all of the above will not put up a good fight in the coming years.

I think the the Maserati and DBRS9 are GT3 cars.

I have good hopes the LNT Panoz will be competative.

The last few years Ferrari factory involvement and GT racing wasn't a good and succesful combination.

**Dani Filth** · 1 Sep 2005, 20:24 (Ref:1396731)

G2 Maserati . not yet

360 GTC . maybe things will change with the 430

. i hope so
LMES . i agree is not the strongest GT2 field . .. but stil .. i remember a 360 GTC qualified quite well at LeMans ..

**Dani Filth** · 1 Sep 2005, 20:26 (Ref:1396734)

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheNewBob

uh huh... and may I ask what they won and in which year? lol I gathered it was N-GT but exactly what it was in N-GT you haven't mentioned yet hehe

2001 FIA N-GT Champions, 5 wins

http://www.fiagt.com/teambio.php?countkey=12

TheNewBob · 1 Sep 2005, 20:29 (Ref:1396738)

okey dokey! I had a strange feeling you'd started referring to 2003 for some bizarre reason...!? have no idea why that one stuck with me...

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