Not a Spectator Sport

[Thundersports]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

That's a good point - at the moment I can pop along to Brands with my son in tow and as he's free it's a good value day out (and I score points with the missus for taking the boy with me - father/son quality time). Once I have to pay for him I'll be going half as often (or leaving him at home and racking up negative points with the missus - abandoning child).

Long term charging 13-16 year olds to get in is a big mistake. When I was that age I used to cycle to every car meeting at Brands and get in for free. My pocket money would be a choice of a programme or lunch. Football clubs are bending over backwards to hook the youngsters as they know long term they are there future. Motor racing seems very complacent.

[midgetman]

And greedy. All motor sport works for the here and now not the future IMO. Witness Bernie Ecclestone's comments on current Rolex wearers being more important than future ones. The business takes its lead from the top.

[simon drabble]

Bernie, like Boris Johnson, likes making sweeping statements. However time usually proves both of them to be correct.

The deals that evolve in an F1 paddock between various sponsors as well as between sponsors and their guests are the justification of the F1 industry. Bernie must do all he can to keep that as high end as possible otherwise the model doesn't work. The racing is merely a necessary backdrop to create purpose. It also helps that they follow the summer round so not quite the same as a wind swept Snet! All a bit OT I admit but frankly if the sponsors need glamour then modern GT and high end historics are the natural progression. Goodwood get it and the corporate packages at the Revival are superb for entertaining.

Over time I think high end historic will continue to polarise and the clubbies will be as they have been for years. Thruxton and Combe being private circuits will promote and get punters through the door the rest will be 5 men minus the dog!

[Moosehead]

Before I raced I used to spectate at a lot of meeting. Now I'm a competitor I do still go to meetings as a spectator but I usually end up spending most if not all my time in the paddock either talking to friends or more usually spannering - so thats one less body on the bank

When I was younger there was very little motor sport on tv so the only way to see it was to go to the circuits. Hednesford Raceway was within cycling/walking distance so that was my fix until I could drive and then Mallory and Donington became reachable on my available petrol.

Nowadays there is so much racing on tv and pretty much limitless on the internet that seeing it is soo easy for everyone why bother going to a meeting?

Also, we have taken away the other senses from racing, the noise and the smell which you could only get by actually being there. With those gone, tv and the internet do the job so much better as you can see so much more of a race/rally whatever all in comfort.

[justracing]

Originally Posted by Moosehead

Also, we have taken away the other senses from racing, the noise and the smell which you could only get by actually being there. With those gone, tv and the internet do the job so much better as you can see so much more of a race/rally whatever all in comfort.

I think this hits the nail on the head for me, there is no substitute for watching live racing, the noise, the smell, the atmosphere, even the ambient temperature and the prevailing weather conditions have a bearing but then I am pretty biased. Everyone else seems to opt for the easy touch and plonk their backside in front of the tv, attending a race meeting for me usually entails preparing the night before, an early morning start, an early morning drive which in itself is a pleasure early on a Sunday morning, it involves meeting friends and engaging in conversation which in itself seems to have been long since forgotten in the 21st century, together with taking in the fresh air and anything else the elements have to throw up. These are simple values which I treasure as do a few friends but they are fast dying if not dead already, youngsters today expect instant gratification via whatever electronic device is to hand. I am not a luddite but there is effort involved in attending any live event and this very premise seems to elude the modern generation and yes I am a grumpy old bugger!

[Mike Bell]

I think last two posts are pretty much as I see it.

Would be interesting to hear one of Nissan's 'Gamers turned real Racing drivers' thoughts on the extra senses bought into play when in an actual car!

[Paul D]

Yup, I'd concur with that too.

Moosehead makes an excellent point about the noise and the smells - I'd never really though of it like that before - and even though racing cars nowadays are a lot quieter than back in the day, they still sound a hell of a lot better from the side of a track than they do on the telly!

But I fear it is this desire for instant gratification that Justracing refers to that is also a big part of the reason why younger types don't get involved - and I've even gone on about this very issue in great length in another thread - or it might have been earlier in this one, not sure now!

The problem these days, certainly for the younger generation, is that we live in an electronic world where you can see and do everything on your phone without ever getting off your arse. Quite how we make them realise that there's actually a real world just beyond the keyboard, with real experiences, better than anything they'll find on their phones, computers and games consoles, I'm not sure!

[justracing]

Originally Posted by Paul D

Yup, I'd concur with that too.

Moosehead makes an excellent point about the noise and the smells - I'd never really though of it like that before - and even though racing cars nowadays are a lot quieter than back in the day, they still sound a hell of a lot better from the side of a track than they do on the telly!

But I fear it is this desire for instant gratification that Justracing refers to that is also a big part of the reason why younger types don't get involved - and I've even gone on about this very issue in great length in another thread - or it might have been earlier in this one, not sure now!

The problem these days, certainly for the younger generation, is that we live in an electronic world where you can see and do everything on your phone without ever getting off your arse. Quite how we make them realise that there's actually a real world just beyond the keyboard, with real experiences, better than anything they'll find on their phones, computers and games consoles, I'm not sure!

Exactly, and I know I'm pretty old fashioned in my views but nevertheless the ethos of carrying out a simple deed or action that requires effort, executing it to the best of your ability and reaping the reward of personal fulfulment without any other reward is totally alien to the modern way of thinking. Sadly, it is those people who are missing something essential in life in my view.
The reader of this may be given to thinking that this a long way off the thread and that this is turning into a philosophical missive but I believe it to be very relevant. As Mike Harte and Moosehead observed, we live in an electronic age with many alternatives to spend recreational time at weekends than use to exist some 30 or more years ago. Whether any of us regard these alternative pastimes as being worthwhile becomes entirely irrelevant, the subject in question is one of attracting more spectators and it ain't going to happen, the competition is too great.

[apriliadriver]

On the topic of sounds/smell etc., about two years ago I decided to end an unintentional 35-year lay-off and go to a drag race meeting - FIA European Finals at Santa Pod.

Now, you can see a lot of drag-racing on TV, tons of it. But nothing gets anywhere even remotely near being on the spectator bank while two Top Fuel dragsters fire up, stage and run the Quarter.

Absolutely earth-shaking, guts-jangling, ear-smiting ... and thank god it only goes on for 4-point-something seconds otherwise they'd be carting away spectator casualties.

That's what is missing from yer iPoke game ... and great to see the complete age-range of youngsters to old ++rts all crammed into a packed spectator area ... and free run of the pit area ... and really greasy burgers.
You can't get that from a 5Gig processor.
Nick

[chunder]

Have to agree to the last post.

Sadly though, because there is only one decent track in the UK, ther are only a couple of chances to see the big stuff square off against each other, and as a result Santa Pod charge a premium for the privilege. But they always have done and fans seem happy. I just cant justify 40 odd quid for a day that might be ruined by bad weather!

I prefer the smaller drag meetings, although dragstalgia last year was huge, massive crowds, 20 quid entry, loads of stuff to see and do.

And you know what, they are moving with the times, there are kids there, kids racing, drifting, monster trucks, stunt shows. Family stuff y'know. But all themed to racing. There was a drive in at dragstalia, just a great idea and not hugely dear.

Again, sadly, a lot of so called race fans look down on things like this, if it isnt Le Mans or Goodwood its not proper.

I ahve been to both and would turn up down the Pod over a bunch of self important classics any day I am afraid. Plus, it's cheaper, more friendly, more accessible (no pit bouncers and tabard berks) easier to get to and parking is free!

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by chunder

Have to agree to the last post.

Again, sadly, a lot of so called race fans look down on things like this, if it isnt Le Mans or Goodwood its not proper.

There are such people as pure RACE fans, and they don't necesssarily take an interest in other MOTORSPORT, but that is their loss. I don't think the fact that they have a tunnel vision approach to the sport should be held against them. You could say the same about someone who only follows Premiership football......

Although I've not be to Santa Pod, I appreciate the appeal- especially to kids, who will know the winner immediately after every run. Short oval stuff is the same....

[BudLightJaguar]

Originally Posted by chunder

Again, sadly, a lot of so called race fans look down on things like this, if it isnt Le Mans or Goodwood its not proper.

Just like those so called F1 fans who asked during the Melbourne weekend 2014 "what's a turbo anyway?".

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by chunder

Have to agree to the last post.

Sadly though, because there is only one decent track in the UK, ther are only a couple of chances to see the big stuff square off against each other, and as a result Santa Pod charge a premium for the privilege. But they always have done and fans seem happy. I just cant justify 40 odd quid for a day that might be ruined by bad weather!

I prefer the smaller drag meetings, although dragstalgia last year was huge, massive crowds, 20 quid entry, loads of stuff to see and do.

And you know what, they are moving with the times, there are kids there, kids racing, drifting, monster trucks, stunt shows. Family stuff y'know. But all themed to racing. There was a drive in at dragstalia, just a great idea and not hugely dear.
I ahve been to both and would turn up down the Pod over a bunch of self important classics any day I am afraid. Plus, it's cheaper, more friendly, more accessible (no pit bouncers and tabard berks) easier to get to and parking is free!

As I type this I'm looking out of my back window at one of the three permanent drag strips in the country. Santa Pod, Shakespeare (?) Raceway and this one near me , York Dragway. It's a permanent strip on a disused WW2 airfield and they hold 6 or 8 meetings a year. Locals can get in free with a utility bill proving your address. I've been a few times and it is good fun though watching hotted up Astras and Civics doesn't quite do it for me but the altereds and dragsters/funnycars are great to watch. There's even a jet engine dragster which appears at the bigger meetings. Facilities are a bit primitive but the atmosphere is good.

[Neil Duke]

Without reading all of this thread,so this has probably already been said-A few years ago the Sun 'newspaper' ran a promotion where entry tickets to clubman meetings were £1.The people came,the franchises were open & busy,families enjoyed a day out at a reasonable price.
The promotion ended,the price went back up,the crowd stopped coming.Enough said!

[Mike Bell]

Will be interesting if the Renault UK backed WSR meeting at Silverstone is free admission, like always used to be. It certainly worked in the past!

[midgetman]

I think it is Mike. Some customers of mine have tickets. We went to Donington to one of their days and it was rammed.

[simon drabble]

Unless the free entry has some level of filtering (like BTCC freebies tickets from local dealers) it is not an indicator to real demand, its turnover for vanity sake.

It would be interesting to know how many of the Thruxton speccies have paid as all the neighbouring villages get free tickets and I am sure Combe is the same. Its a trade off on noise.

Superbikes was the only meeting at Thruxton that I saw noticable increase of traffic on the A303. There would be bikers converging on the track from every direction.

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

Unless the free entry has some level of filtering (like BTCC freebies tickets from local dealers) it is not an indicator to real demand, its turnover for vanity sake.

That's over-cynical. The big brands that are sponsoring cars/events/drivers need mass market exposure to get a return on their investment. They don't just need you, me and the other competitors. A small but knowledgeable crowd isn't a profitable one! It's not vanity, but support for the stakeholders in the championships.

Combe certainly used to attract more than the locals. We could tell what sort of racing was on by the cars on the A4 some 15 miles away. Streams of MGs/Lotuses w.h.y.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

Unless the free entry has some level of filtering (like BTCC freebies tickets from local dealers) it is not an indicator to real demand, its turnover for vanity sake.

It would be interesting to know how many of the Thruxton speccies have paid as all the neighbouring villages get free tickets and I am sure Combe is the same. Its a trade off on noise.

But extra people through the gate = extra revenue for traders inside the circuit (drinks, burgers, ice cream etc etc). Also maybe a few of those extra people get the bug and take up competing or marshaling or officiating. If you got more people through the gate with free entry you may well make the 'lost' ticket price back through the extra money spent inside the circuit.

[chunder]

Too right Bert

That is why red Bull do their free Flugtag days and the like, it is about exposure and marketing.

I think it's a brilliant idea, it is the way a lot of computer games are now going, free to playl get them hooked and then start dripping in ways of getting revenue out of the punters who are playing. There are good and bad ways of doing this, but the good ones are very successful. Make their companies tens of millions. Totally different market I know, but you get the gyst.

I am fairly sure that of those tens of thousands who went to the Renault events, there are quite a few who went to a few race meetings, maybe one or two who took up racing.

Same as GT Academy, genius idea to get people playing your game, being exposed to Nissan, and then marketin a product. With a decent result, The system is utterly flawed in that it rewards twitch players but you cannot argue with it.

Simply "raping" the existing clientele with higher prices, parking (classic, NEC, F1 etc) in order to pay your marketing bill and make money for the tracks other non profit events can not last.

It worls at Goodwood becaus they have the clout to pull in anything they want, be it a driver, car or marque. No other event can do that, not even Le Mans. March can and does. And he has managed to make his event the car equivalent of Ascot. Genius marketing. if it was held at say Clumber Park, in a less posh setting, no race course, no "Lord", no Moet stands but similar track, cars and attraciton, would it have lasted? Probably not,

There are a lot of snobs in this country, and they love stuff like that. But it does nothing, whatsoever for motorsport and everything for an already rich entitled and in the loop group.

[Paul D]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

But extra people through the gate = extra revenue for traders inside the circuit (drinks, burgers, ice cream etc etc). Also maybe a few of those extra people get the bug and take up competing or marshaling or officiating. If you got more people through the gate with free entry you may well make the 'lost' ticket price back through the extra money spent inside the circuit.

It's a well known business practice, as we all know: it's called a loss-leader. You offer the punters something either free, or very cheap, on the basis that once you've got them through the door, they'll buy other stuff that you can make a decent profit on - in this case, food/drinks, programmes, merchandise. You may even be lucky enough to sell a few high value items such as a track day entry, experience days, etc. Supermarkets have been using the technique for decades, and while I appreciate it's a different market, I reckon the same principles apply.

I've never really understood why circuits don't do this. As it stands they charge typically, what? £12 - £15 for a typical club meeting on the gate, but no one promotes it so average Joe doesn't even know it's on, and even if he did, he's gonna baulk at the thought of paying £60 on the gate to get in with his missus and two teenage sons. Hence, no one turns up other than a few friends and family of competitors, plus a small core of die-hard fans. And half of the friends and family have probably got in free with complimentary tickets. Result? Gate takings virtually nowt and no one spending any money at the circuit's various facilities. To me, it's like Tesco having a massive sale but not telling anyone about it!

Consider the alternative: make the gate entry either free, or a very nominal sum (say no more than a fiver, kids free), actually (shock, horror!) publicise the event in some local papers, etc - which doesn't have to cost a fortune, and I reckon even a typical club meeting (weather permitting) would get a few hundred punters, at least, through the gate. These people would then go on to spend, collectively, I guess a few thousand quid inside the circuit, and that's without factoring in any 'high value' sales that you may secure as a result of the increased footfall. Isn't that better than getting less than a hundred through the gate who may have paid £15 to get in?

It seems to me there's a lot of complacency and greed from the circuits. They've made their money form us, the competitiors, and it seems they can't be arsed trying to get anyone through the gate - almost as if punters are more trouble than they're worth. Don't they see that, whether we like it or not, today's kids are tomorrow's club racers, and you've got to get them hooked before something else (football, anyone?) does. How many impressionable young lads, even at a typical club meeting, wouldn't be left wanting more once they'd seen it for real, rather than on a soul-less, remote, telly?

[terence]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

Unless the free entry has some level of filtering (like BTCC freebies tickets from local dealers) it is not an indicator to real demand, its turnover for vanity sake.

It would be interesting to know how many of the Thruxton speccies have paid as all the neighbouring villages get free tickets and I am sure Combe is the same. Its a trade off on noise.

Superbikes was the only meeting at Thruxton that I saw noticable increase of traffic on the A303. There would be bikers converging on the track from every direction.

Same for Snetterton, except not many locals go along.JP hands out quite a few annual passes but not many get used-unless its a big bike meeting.