Too Much Historic Racing?

[bauble]

So Bauble, is there too much Historic racing or historic racing? (To get back on topic)

</pedantmode>

An excellent question Sir!

The answer must await a full analysis of all of the current 'categories' and deviations from same.

In my days (when I was but a boy) we only had Vintage and current (small c ).
Then came Historic which were basically 1950's Grands Prix cars and sports cars. As time has passed and more and more 'old' cars became available the 50's were subsumed in to the sixties, seventies, even eighties and 'Classic' started to be used to describe some series and cars.

Now confusion reigns and individual organisers splash these terms around to suit themselves. 'The Classic' covers all of the above mentioned eras plus pre war and nineties saloons.

Personally I don't give a bagger what people describe there cars as to me anything after 1960 is modern.

It seems to me to make sense to amalgamate as many classes as possible into a single race meeting so that devotes of 'old cars' know what to expect if they do pay to watch, a sort of mini Classic or a low end Revival, something akin to the VSCC Spring Start.

If this were so I would imagine that racing would eventually break down into two categories. Playboy and Raggedy Ass.*

Hope this helps you understand my position.

Cheers,

Bauble.

* I won't ask where you fit in.

[Paul D]

Originally Posted by bauble

Personally I don't give a bagger what people describe there cars as to me anything after 1960 is modern.

Perhaps this highlights part of the problem: everyone has a different idea of what constitutes 'historic'. I suspect I may be somewhat younger than Bauble, so I might be inclined to say that I see anything up to around 1980 as historic. The '80s, to my mind were the start of the truly modern era - this was the period when electronic fuel injection became the norm, and when, gradually, cars began to resemble computers more than they did motor vehicles.

But, someone younger again will regard the '90s as the cut-off, and so on. The club I race with has series' that span 50+ years of motoring history, from the '50s right up to the modern era. Should a club with the word 'classic' in its title be hosting series' for cars from the '90s or later? I don't know, but I certainly wouldn't class those cars as 'historic'. It does produce an eclectic mix of cars sometimes, and they generally get good grids, so they must be offering something that people want.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Paul D

Perhaps this highlights part of the problem: everyone has a different idea of what constitutes 'historic'. I suspect I may be somewhat younger than Bauble, so I might be inclined to say that I see anything up to around 1980 as historic. The '80s, to my mind were the start of the truly modern era - this was the period when electronic fuel injection became the norm, and when, gradually, cars began to resemble computers more than they did motor vehicles.

But, someone younger again will regard the '90s as the cut-off, and so on. The club I race with has series' that span 50+ years of motoring history, from the '50s right up to the modern era. Should a club with the word 'classic' in its title be hosting series' for cars from the '90s or later? I don't know, but I certainly wouldn't class those cars as 'historic'. It does produce an eclectic mix of cars sometimes, and they generally get good grids, so they must be offering something that people want.

25 years ago it was 1990, ..I forget but I think if a car is 25 years old it used to be that you didn't pay tax on it...it was classed as vintage ha ha by the government wasn't it?...

I think

1 You have the old guard, the people who are older as said by others who believe that Historic is Historic, it involves listening to the "wireless" the romance and excitement of an era gone whereby it was "Jolly good fun" "last one back to Berkeley Square buys the poo!"..and "we had such a thrash!" (JT, Nigel Neweth Gibbs used to love that expression)

2 Some of us (you) from the old guard are VERY passionate about their Historic racing and believe that you can only call it genuine Historic if the car is authentic down the the last washer, is not a rep and has been blessed by The Holy God of Historic Racing several years ago..and that is fair enough when you consider for example, that some might have ploughed fortunes and fortunes into restoring or keeping authentic a genuine piece of machinery.....only to then see another one that from the outside looks the same, but is actually built on some kit basis and has a Jag IRS back end and is nitro propelled.....or worst still they look the same....but the second one is just a replica....but you see , they kinda miss the point...the fact is, they know it is a rep...so what?..... they have the upper hand because their car IS the genuine article...Theirs is the real deal. Personally I liken that to the wally in the 318 BMW that has made it look like an M3....and then wants to race me...Im the one thats gonna win aint i!

But what the old guard have to realise is that there are now, younger people, say in their 30's who believe that a 1980's XR3 or RS1600i is a classic...a modern classic and who are any of us to say otherwise, it is what it is...the sands of time move and the clock doesn't stop ..its why CSCC does rather well because they DO cater for that sort of car and are fairly lose with regs...which leads me on to the link

We talk (moan) about the MSA putting too much red tape in to enable someone to race, how its easier to basically go "drifting" and the likes rather than go all through the hardship of an ARDS test and then all the rest of the stuff....yet here we are saying we should limit choice????? what good will that do

"Id love to go racing but I can't because I have not got a genuine £XXXXXXXXX car with full "My Little Pony" papers and a budget of the third world debt!"

or..."Id love to go racing but its full at the moment so Im on the waiting list" really???? what other sport does that?

I don't think you can have too much of a good thing and providing that at the end of the day the customer (competitor if you so wish but they do pay for a service) is happy then he or she will want more, if not they won't and as Simon says, once the fast money has gone you will be left with the people who can really deliver

If you limit the amount of clubs/series whatever you basically are saying no to a free market...sorry but that really doesn't work.

[chunder]

There is no free market

right now there is an over priced, over regulated, greedy monopoly

The vast majority of people who would ahave rqaced in the last few years now do track days.

That market has filled that gap, so much so that most tracks would probably rather do that than hold race meetings.

Getting those poeple into racing is easy.

Make it cheaper, get rid of money making barriers like ARDS, allow low licence meetings with a risk of less marshals to make entries cheaper on small tracks like club tracks.

Simple, but makes less money NOW, so wont happen as books have to be balanced year on year. We cant look forward or I (the manager) will get sacked and made to answer questions like some sort of bank manager

[Mike Harte]

(Claire's post)

Good post that, Claire

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by chunder

There is no free market

right now there is an over priced, over regulated, greedy monopoly

The vast majority of people who would ahave rqaced in the last few years now do track days.

That market has filled that gap, so much so that most tracks would probably rather do that than hold race meetings.

Getting those poeple into racing is easy.

Make it cheaper, get rid of money making barriers like ARDS, allow low licence meetings with a risk of less marshals to make entries cheaper on small tracks like club tracks.

Simple, but makes less money NOW, so wont happen as books have to be balanced year on year. We cant look forward or I (the manager) will get sacked and made to answer questions like some sort of bank manager

you are not proposing a free market....your proposing track day rules for racing....that already exists (MSV run the track day trophy..."the next step" so to speak...and the MSA have even got in on that....you can get a track day clerks licence now I believe?..).

Less marshals??? really?....Marshals are not paid in this country....they have NOTHING to do with costs at all...apart from without em, the permit is pulled and the show don't go on....
ARDS doesn't HAVE to be a money making barrier....but are you seriously suggesting allowing any Tom Dick or Harriet on to a race track to RACE without some for or proficiency?.(remember on a track day you should not be racing or indeed timekeeping) .. didn't we have that with "Full Throttle Cottle?" you want him to roll up on circuit and be allowed to race because the ARDS test is a "bit of barrier"

And what is your definition of "low licence" meetings...are they less risky?...mmm are they limited by Speed?...or engine size etc?...because if not, what as I say makes it a "low Licence" meeting , who is paying the insurance on this meeting?

[andy97]

Agree, excellent post, Claire.

I think some in the historic world are just too elitist for their own good, and that puts off participation.

I actually prefer the term "classic" to historic, as something can be classic even when brand new, but there are certain cars that may be old but no one will ever convince me that they are classics!

[midgetman]

>>>>>>>>>>but are you seriously suggesting allowing any Tom Dick or Harriet on to a race track to RACE without some for or proficiency?

Claire, you know we really used to do that. Yes, hard though it is to believe, I remember my first race where I just bowled up at Castle Combe with a battered MG in the transporter and went out to race. You know what? I didn't die, I didn't hit anyone, no-one came up and moaned at me for getting in their way.

I didn't have a medical either, and I didn't suffer a heart attack or diabetic coma.

How DID I survive to this age without all those nannies looking over me?

It's very easy for someone on the "inside" to be over-protective. But on the whole, people are pretty sensible. in fact, some of the worst accidents I've seen are caused by idiots racing who have presumably PASSED their ARDS test!

[chunder]

Erm, didn't we manage just fine for decades before the MSA realised they could make a bunch of money before ARDS tests? Were there hundreds of hoodlums turning up and killing people, getting in the way? Not really but grids were full most of the time.

All you are doing is putting barriers in the way of people racing, licences, insurance, etc.

I know they are there for a reason, but you do not seem to understand what that does for the man in the street, they will just lose interest and move on to something else. I did.

Smaller track means less marshals, Cadwell club or Silverstone club means less marshals, That was the point. Lower licence means racing on a cheap licence, perhaps on smaller tracks, tricky with the racing side, but get em to sign a waiver!

You seem to be confusing my post about track days with them wanting to race? All I meant was that in the past those guys could NOT do track days as they didn't really exist, so their only option was racing.

There are too many barriers, most of them enforced sadly.

But the ARDS test is for me an embarassment. It is a way for racing drivers to earn money, and is a very clever way of adding further costs to what is already something too expensive for little reason in my eyes. If you are really thinking people will turn up and drive like they do on the road then reall? If you are interested enough to buy a car, licence etc are you really going to be inept? there are plenty of historic racers that shouldn't be allowed anywhere near a damn track for a start so poor are they!

Let me give you an example of the differences. A few weeks a spectated at an off road bike enduro event.

This was on private land, the entry fee was 45 quid. There was no scrutineering. There were rules sent out beforehand with a wristband to tell you about numbers, lockwires on certain bolts etc. Common sense prevails here.

Safety equipment too is common sense, if you turn up in a 40 year helmet you will be turned away. Similarly if you are wearing trackie bottoms and a pair of riggers you will be asked to leave. You can thouh turn up on a road bike, and compete with everyone else, another friend did. Obviously in full knlwede that you are responsible for getting home, your risk.

Does this cost anything? No. Does it mean you get people turning up with poor equipment? No. Does it mean you encourage anyone to take part? Yes, there are quad races, kids races where Dads can ride along with their kids.

The enduro lasts 2 hours. The quickest guys can do maybe 15 laps, my mate managed about 6, was he unhappy? No, coz he learned a bunch, was worn out and got home before it was dark.

This is accesible motorsport, there is NOTHING like that on four wheels really. Maybe off roading, club level autograss and short oval racing.

This is my point, whether it is track days, historic racing, club racing, it is simply not accesible to the mere mortal wthout endless money making and red tape barriers in the way.

A lot of this is enforced and a result of law, but some of it is pure piffle.

[Mike Harte]

Like you, Max, I just applied to the MSA for my licence as there wasn't anything like ARDS in existence back then, but I did have to get the medical part of the application signed off by my family doctor. Remember getting the usual lecture about cutting back on my smoking habit, which was said in a dead pan manner by him whilst his ever present cigarette stuck in his mouth dropped ash everywhere

Having got a licence, we had to complete 6 races satisfactorily to be able to be allowed to remove the big X on the rear of the car, and then get the next level of licence.

To partly answer Chunder, I am afraid that you are too young to know how things were. Brands Hatch, and probably plenty of other tracks around the country, used to run open days when you could just turn up and drive just about anything. Brands used to do these, from memory, on a Wednesday and some Saturdays. We used to go pretty frequently on Saturday afternoons to run-in/test my Anglia, and would find ourselves in the company of people driving their road cars right up to the very latest Formula 2 cars, all on the track at the same time. The speed differentials were an absolute nightmare, and I admit that I was guilty of running off a future multiple F1 world champion who was testing a F2 that afternoon.

Chunder, you may be playing devil's advocate, but I do think that you are a little deluded in some of the things that you seem to think would benefit the racing world. Please don't be offended by what I have written, but I honestly don't think that all your views reflect the real world that we now inhabit.

[chunder]

I do realise that some of my views might be a little off the wall.

They are simply trying to reflect how easy it is ins other forms of motorsport to compete and get involved.

There is nothing I ahve written that is sensational, or amazingly outlandish, it is all things that might make driving a car on a track more appealing to the fan who wants to.

if that is deluded, then you might as well quit

[bauble]

Perhaps this highlights part of the problem: everyone has a different idea of what constitutes 'historic'. I suspect I may be somewhat younger than Bauble

Isn't everyone?

Old Bawb.

[midgetman]

Just what does the MSA DO these days? Insurance? The circuits can source that themselves. Health and safety? You can bet the circuits have their own relationships on that front anyway. Lay down standards? I reckon the insurance companies do that themselves.

So, what does the MSA do for us? Let's start the People's Front for the Liberation of Motor Racing!

The first circuit to break ranks and organise a non-MSA race meeting will open the floodgates.

[MGDavid]

by doing inspections and issuing track licences doesn't the MSA give the circuit owners someone to blame / fall back on should the worst happen?

[terence]

Chunder"a way for race drivers to make money"? Not in the UK, ards instructors are paid a pittance in comparison to errrm, elsewhere, shall we say.

[bauble]

Whether it is all the fault of the MSA I can't say but when I go to meeting and see even the slowest of cars have a driver togged out in fireproof overalls, wearing a massive helmet, HANs device, and tightly strapped in to his car. I think back to 'the good old days' when short sleeve shirts and a decent crash hat were the norm. Admittedly there were more serious accidents, but that is what the 'sport' was about; Dicing with death.

Today it seems that all the risk has been eliminated.

Call me callous but what is the point?

From the views expressed in the thread it seems not everyone agrees with the current regime, and would be happy to bring back an element of risk.

Over the years spectating I have dodged stray cars, motor bikes, flying wheels and still come back for more, and only wish one could see the racing without fences and banks obscuring the view. I know what is says on the back of the ticket and am prepared to take the risk.

Viva la revolucion!

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by bauble

Whether it is all the fault of the MSA I can't say but when I go to meeting and see even the slowest of cars have a driver togged out in fireproof overalls, wearing a massive helmet, HANs device, and tightly strapped in to his car. I think back to 'the good old days' when short sleeve shirts and a decent crash hat were the norm. Admittedly there were more serious accidents, but that is what the 'sport' was about; Dicing with death.

Today it seems that all the risk has been eliminated.

Call me callous but what is the point?

Can't quite agree with you there, tell that to the families of three drivers killed in our series. There's been plenty of deaths and serious injuries in clubbie racing in recent years and then there was Henry Surtees a few years ago so there's still lots of risk in it and anything to make it better is welcomed. The problem is when we have to renew perfectly good safety equipment for no good reason.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by bauble

.......

Today it seems that all the risk has been eliminated.

....

Sorry I am about to dis this post not the poster....but what utter rubbish...

Please try explaining that statement to the family of a dear ten tenther and historic racing friend who I and im sure others on this very forum still miss to this day yet only knew him through racing who lost his life at Donington in 2012. Please don't say there seems to be no risk in motorsport that is complete nonsense there is certainly a massive risk in any motorsport the difference is now is that we are more SENSIBLE in trying to make it Fun rather than life or death and Im NOT sticking up for the MSA here...I'm sticking up for common sense sorry.

[bauble]

Tim, Claire. I quite understand your attitude, and am neither surprised or offended by any criticism of my post, it is precisely what I expected, but this is only a generational difference in outlook.

I witnessed several fatal accidents back in the fifties, and mourned many of my heroes who died doing what they loved, it was always a terrible blow, but was not unusual, it was part of motor racing in that era.

Even some 50 odd years later I still feel sad for so many lives lost, some people I had met some just names in the magazines.

Mike Keen Goodwood 1955, such a thoroughly nice chap, Bill Smith, Dundrod 1955 a tremendous talent. Just two that I still truly grief for.

I am aware that increased safety has made fatalities relatively rare, and so cause so much more grief when tragedy strikes, but to me it has always been dangerous, and probably accept these incidents more readily than younger people.

I am sorry if I caused distress.

Bob.

[chunder]

We are not saying that a bit of risk is a vital thing, and not at all making an assumption that familes of those killed would be delighted at racing without safety equipment.

Accidents happen in all forms of motorsport, the stuff I watch, and the stuff you watch.

I saw a legend and friend die in a race car right before my very eyes, and it was awful. But he was enjoying himself, at the front and went in the best way he could really rather some awful drawn out illness.

My points and those of others here, are not about bypassing safety, they are about making the sport easier for the man in the street to take part in, if that means signing an insurance waiver then fair enough, like you would on an experience day. If you want to bring the gear then you can, but it is not a vital part of being able to race. Like tyourist days in germany, you can wear all the gear, but I never did in the countless laps I did, I knew the risks and didnt drive like a cretin. So didnt have an accident, if something unforeseen happened, my fault.

These are just ideas, thoughts. Histrionic racing has been growing for years, and it's largely the rich that have grown it. That is not a good thing for the rest of motorsport, only them and the people working in that cottage industry and a few others.

My points are aimed not at people organising things here and there but the overlords, the people who are supposed to govern, bring in new ideas, pro active not reactive.

And from my view, they do none of that. All they do is react when somehting goes wrong, like the Jim Clark situation, totally cack themselves when the issue was praps a lack of knowledge and attention from a few poeple and the result may be no fans allowed on rallies at all.

Why not stcik up for the fans for Gods sake instead of cowering to the H+S and bad PR crew. It's really not hard. If its about educaiton, do some bloody educating for goodness sake.

And here if numbers are down, go and do something about it!

[Heightswitch]

Not sure I want any old man in the street taking part..Thats what track days are for..

You have to want racing! I am far from wealthy and have built what is probably considered to be a rare and desirable car…It took me many years of blood sweat and tears..

I could have bought an MX5 and went racing in that for far less cost..

I have seen many different driving styles over the years but I do feel more confident that If I am on a circuit with racing drivers then generally they know what I am doing and visa versa.

It shouldn't be too easy to go racing and my view is that if you want it you will do it..

Yes you get good and bad in both but Racing isn't for the bored fancy doing something different this weekend crowd..thats what football, and golf is for.

Personally with the ever increasing mechanical luddites abound these days I would make passing a driving test like getting a pilots license..Even then I think you shouldn't be allowed to drive a car until you have built at least 2 engines… ;-)

N.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by Heightswitch

It shouldn't be too easy to go racing and my view is that if you want it you will do it.

This, I am afraid is the problem. Many of the younger generation want to be able to do things, and to be able to do them immediately. There are too many young people around who get paid far too much money (or are just given it) and so they can indulge themselves in all sorts of ways.

As a late teen I had a decent job and was earning roughly the same as most youths of my age. When I decided I wanted to go racing, I first did all my sums to work out approximately how much it would cost for me to build the car from a bare shell, and quickly realised that I couldn't afford it. So, I went and got a couple of part time evening/night jobs which took up 5 to 6 nights a week meaning that I often didn't get home until 2 or 3 in the morning, almost in time to get up for the day job.

I didn't resent having to work all these hours because I knew that this was my passport to the tracks, and after about 6 months I had actually made enough to start the project, which I did that winter, completing it in time for the start of the championship season. However, to carry on being able to afford my racing, I still had to keep my part time jobs - but it was no sacrifice.

I am not holding myself up as a paragon of virtue; there were hundreds of other young drivers who were doing the same or similar. Some of the young lads I used to meet up with a the tracks used to live in their towing vehicles on a permanent basis to save on paying rent, and used to earn their drives through acting as spanners to small teams. None of this was a big deal to us because we were indulging in our passion.

Nowadays, it seems as though everybody wants it all handed to them on a plate with the minimum amount of effort - yes, I am damn sure that there are plenty of exceptions, but there are too bloomin' many of the "we want it now for next to nothing" brigade around for my liking.

[john ruston]

Many of the young drivers come from racing families.

Few seem to be newcomers to Motorsport.

To many other things to do and much cheaper.

You can drive round any track on a computer for next to nothing and con yourself that is race driving.

Change in young people's view of the world with very few driving on the road like many of us did in 60/70's.May have been very wrong but remember they were exciting times.

[midgetman]

More important than the ARDS test is surely a grading scheme. Earn your stripes in low powered cars before being allowed to race Evos and the like.

Regarding racing against hot heads, you gave to be careful which series you choose to race in.

Regarding JR's point about racing families he's quite right. Non - dynastic drivers tend to last about 5 years in the sport and it's just one of a range of leisure pursuits. I'd never give up a race weekend to go to the theatre but some of my karting customers do just that!

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by midgetman

More important than the ARDS test is surely a grading scheme. Earn your stripes in low powered cars before being allowed to race Evos and the like.

Regarding racing against hot heads, you gave to be careful which series you choose to race in.

Regarding JR's point about racing families he's quite right. Non - dynastic drivers tend to last about 5 years in the sport and it's just one of a range of leisure pursuits. I'd never give up a race weekend to go to the theatre but some of my karting customers do just that!

I agree that you have to choose who ya race with carefully, but if we limit choice as suggested elsewhere on this thread then you won't get that option

As for the licence grading I agree that could have some miliage although we have grading as such now and that is another bone of contention as its kinda regulation

I like the idea of competitors earning their stripes though and I would not base it on the type of meeting they race in either, it should be on the amount of time and experience that they have had behind the wheel