Too Much Historic Racing?

[Duddha]

Have a look at this - http://duddha.me/2015/01/09/historic...s-changed-and/

[terence]

Originally Posted by midgetman

More important than the ARDS test is surely a grading scheme. Earn your stripes in low powered cars before being allowed to race Evos and the like.
!

That unfortuneatly is the mindset of a modern younger mind.Given the choice between something like a 175bhp Clio or an M3, the latter is always the choice."Why do you want so much power before you can get the most out of it? We'll use the Clio first".

[zefarelly]

The reason I started racing was because I knew I couldn't drive enthusiastically on the road any more, for a multitude of obvious reasons.

Originally Posted by john ruston

Change in young people's view of the world with very few driving on the road like many of us did in 60/70's.May have been very wrong but remember they were exciting times.

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by Duddha

Have a look at this - http://duddha.me/2015/01/09/historic...s-changed-and/

really good blog - puts it all into perspective. thanks for highlighting it

[Paul D]

Good point from JR and Zef. Many of us over a certain age probably spent our early driving years driving around the roads like total nutters! I know I did, and looking back find it hard to believe some of the things we used to do (and get away with!). I hasten to add that I wouldn't attempt to repeat most of those feats on today's roads! You might still outrun the cop car, but the helicopter with infra-red and night-imaging may prove a bit trickier!

It was this behaviour, and as Zef said, the gradual realisation that my luck was going to run out on the road, sooner or later, that got me hooked on competing instead. And maybe that's the problem with the younger ones now. I suspect it's difficult, if not impossible to drive on the roads the way we used to do and still get away with it, so I imagine many younger types aren't getting that 'buzz', which led, indirectly to many of us wanting to take the next step. And I just don't think the 'buzz' you'll get from doing it 'virtually' on your X-box playing 'Grand Theft Turismo 17' is quite the same!

[Duddha]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

really good blog - puts it all into perspective. thanks for highlighting it

Thanks Simon

[chunder]

It's easy to point out games ad the like are replacing racing in some way. But that simply is not true

there are just as many kids razzing round in souped up Civics, Corsa's per se. They can hardly afford it as we could because of the pathetic insurance premiums theya re paying, but theya re still there.

Trouble is they don't want to race, they want to drift, customise, tune and pose. The market for racing has long since dwindled.

What has caused this? Forza, Gran Turismo, Need for Speed, where you can customise, tune, drift. You cna rcae too of course, but most kids aren't interested.

Another aspect to suggest is that this scene also attracts ethnic minorities that ahve never before been that bothered abou cars, and certinaly tuning. Genereaitons of Asian and black kdis are getting into cars now, but not interested in racing, similarly to hispanic kids in parts of teh USA, BUT they do love their drag racing over there, adn some classes are dominated by raceers of HIspanic origin, an amazing thing.

This doesnt happen anywhere here. it is getting better in karting and the like, but we cant attract them into anyhting racy, let alone historics.

Maybe that era of early 90's, if pushed properly might do just that

[midgetman]

It certainly isnt getting better in karting where licence numbers are plummeting.

Interestingly one of the vociferous ones on a karting forum reckons more videos of karts drifting and doing Ken Block stuff instead of "boring racing" will attract the youngsters, which bears out the rest of Chunder's post.

[chunder]

I know little of karting sadly, not a fan really. Sad to know numbers are dropping.

Is there any idea why or is it simply costs?

A lot of people all over motorsport are just borying their head in the sand, even in basic stuff that I watch there are easy ways to cut costs that might mean a bit of hardship initially, but long term could be beneficial, especially in starter and kid formula's.

I think you could race most basic historic formulae for the same as season in top level junior karting, and that has been allowed to be that way for decades!

It's total insanity and you have toa dmit an amazing fact its been going so long!

[grantp]

Originally Posted by midgetman

I'd never give up a race weekend to go to the theatre but some of my karting customers do just that!

Hard core wouldn't give up a race weekend to go to an operating theatre.

[John Turner]

Chunder's right about the current youngsters in hot hatches and others. They are just as stupid as we were; probably more so since the cars are much more competent than ours were. It means that when something goes wrong, it usually happens at higher velocities and despite modern safety features often results in fatalities. It's a sadly regular occurrence here in Lincolnshire but then the roads up here lend themselves to such driving and are fraught with dangers.

As for the thread title; it is surely without question that there is too much historic racing in the sense that there are too many event clashes which presents choices to drivers and often means reduced grid sizes. Unfortunately for me personally, many of the cars I wish to see racing don't come out often enough or aren't catered for, which means that now I am in the position of occasional race organiser, I will continue to try and find ways of introducing new races for them. Not helpful but then I am an anorak!

[midgetman]

Chunder a season of sensible historic racing is way cheaper than top line karting. Even some "club" drivers are spending £25k per year. When you add it all up including the depreciation on their £50k race vans etc...

Back to Historics. John says about the cars he wants to watch not coming out any more. Are we going to get to the point where cars are too valuable, too old, spares too scarce that they won't be raced any more? With the traditional "Historic" cut off now being 50 years ago are we now at the zenith of Historic (and especially historic where there isn't the money) racing?

In which case there won't be too much racing for much longer!

[Mike Bell]

If parts get scarce but the owners still want to race the marque / model, am sure someone will meet the demand. Modern 3D printing and reverse engineering or whatever it's called makes it a lot easier.

There will always be cars that are too valuable to race, but that normally results in the (able to afford) owners building a replica, so the original can be kept safe!

Sorry if OT!

[midgetman]

Blimey, another one just dropped into my inbox. From the indefatigueable Julius:

The Historic Racing Drivers Club launches an innovative concept in single-make racing, by announcing an all-Austin A30/35 race at Mallory Park on Saturday 26 September.

The grid will consist of two distinct classes: The 'Gentlemen' for the recently-launched HRDC 'Academy' class cars and the 'Players' for the more modified 'Speedwell' class cars. All cars will run on Dunlop historic CR65 race tyres, a contributory factor in keeping a level playing field among the competition running in these two distinct classes.

This one-off race will take place at Mallory Park on 26 September at the HRDC/BRSCC 'RETRORACEFEST' meeting. Undoubtedly, this unique event will be a headline act and for competitors who are lucky enough to own one of these spectacular Austin A30/35 'Pocket-rockets', it will surely will be a case of 'Be there - or be square!'

A natural progression from this innovative race will be the HRDC 'Academy' Series, which will run from 2016 as a stand-alone series for these strictly-controlled-formula, one-make, entry-level historic race cars.

[Derwent Motorsp]

Julius has always been a chancer, sometimes it works for him and sometimes not. I can't see a one make A35 series taking off. The whole point of historics is that we don't have one make series, something that spoils modern racing.
I've been to a few kart races in recent years and it's quite dreadful, the level of competiveness and cheating by the parents and their teams to move there little lad towards being the next Hamilton. They have to take their tyres off them after races, they have 2 cameras on each kart etc etc.
A friend has a 14 year old who karts and he would love to get hi into cars as it's so much cheaper. Once again the MSA are the big NO NO. Why is is a 14 year can't do speed events in a road car but is allowed to to the Ginetta racing with BTCC?

[zefarelly]

One thing which is relatively new and easily accessible, which quite possibly satisfies the 'lads' and detracts from race entiries is track days.

Cheap, simple and no bureaucracy/clubs/politics.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

One thing which is relatively new and easily accessible, which quite possibly satisfies the 'lads' and detracts from race entiries is track days.

Cheap, simple and no bureaucracy/clubs/politics.

But is not racing .......well ...shouldn't be racing I hasten to add

[zefarelly]

As I said, if you just want a proper blast in your car, a track day's enough for most. Its simple.

of those who do actually 'race' probably half are just driving enthusiastically, in some series you get left on your own after 2 laps anyway!

[chunder]

That is a point I raised either here or on another thread.

I tried it, it was OK, but wasn't for me, was fairly boring going round and round and as there was no-one to race, I found it dull, unless you were somewhere like Nurburgring.

Sadly, as I said previously these guys might have raced in Stock Hatch, or mod prods or Fast Fords in the past, but now are quite happy doing track days, and might I add some of them spending serious money on 911's Radicals, Elises.

For the price of any of those cars, you could buy something like a Dolomite, Escort, Rover and do some proper racing in something relatively nice to drive and be competitive after spending a few grand.

It just seems track days are a priority for some tracks, notably Rockingham. and they are more interested because it makes them more money, they have turned their back on motorsport, which is so sad.

That HAS to be wrong for everyone involved in racing, and simply means racing is NOT attracting people. Either coz of price, time, attitudes or whatever.

How you turn that round is the issue of the governing body, and they do not seem at all interested, as they are not in helping tracks with noise issues, track closures, karting, new venues etc etc etc.

They are squarely to blame, not entirely but in my eyes they shoulder most of it.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by chunder

That is a point I raised either here or on another thread.

I tried it, it was OK, but wasn't for me, was fairly boring going round and round and as there was no-one to race, I found it dull, unless you were somewhere like Nurburgring.

Sadly, as I said previously these guys might have raced in Stock Hatch, or mod prods or Fast Fords in the past, but now are quite happy doing track days, and might I add some of them spending serious money on 911's Radicals, Elises.

For the price of any of those cars, you could buy something like a Dolomite, Escort, Rover and do some proper racing in something relatively nice to drive and be competitive after spending a few grand.

It just seems track days are a priority for some tracks, notably Rockingham. and they are more interested because it makes them more money, they have turned their back on motorsport, which is so sad.

That HAS to be wrong for everyone involved in racing, and simply means racing is NOT attracting people. Either coz of price, time, attitudes or whatever.

How you turn that round is the issue of the governing body, and they do not seem at all interested, as they are not in helping tracks with noise issues, track closures, karting, new venues etc etc etc.

They are squarely to blame, not entirely but in my eyes they shoulder most of it.

But they cannot stop a circuit from allowing track days? no governing body would or could, so perhaps (as keeps being said) they should make it easier for people to take the leap to racing?...well yes, but not at the expense of safety as was muted earlier in these posts I am dead against that.

Time for a biblical moan!

I think last year was supposed to be the year of the club or something (can't remember if honest) but I do feel that they do not help the club attract people to Motorsport..and I could not agree with you more over the issue of noise. I find it totally unacceptable that it is used far too easily as an excuse not to do anything at all and no one says "HOLD ON!" ...its all "yes yes we must be quite!" really?...guess what all...Snett is NOT a library! ..

The environment and noise and polution and all that Jazz is rammed down our throats at the drop of a hat and what good does it do us when China still produces more than anyone else and sticks their two fingers up at us?....and the worst culprits for CO2..are in actual fact COWS and veg (man is responsible for 0.54% of the total CO2 in the atmosphere!!! just over HALF A PERCENT !!!! )

The rout of the problem I think is this....My son (not him...theres more to the story ha ha) has a PS3 and can take a whole host of cars around Brands Hatch GP circuit in the virtual world ....he is quite good (11 years of age) and competes online etc...you know how it works don't you. But thats done in the safety of a bedroom ...and in truth, it is nothing like the real thing (well I can't get the hang of it!!)...but he doesn't know that ...the thing is, that the old guard didn't have PS3...they went and saw their heroes at the track and those that thought "I want to do that" had to do it the hard way ...not in the comfort of a bedroom and the only thing they can fall off is the bunk bed or chair!

We need to get the armchair lot to want to race for real...thats what the campaign should be called RACE FOR REAL...Real Drivers...Real Tracks...Real Cars......The GO Motorsport pack needs to be changed ...well the whole "Go Motorsport" campaign should, I believe the ARDS or some form of that test is essential, but why can there not be a pool of equipment that the MSA have that allows youngsters to "rent" per race?...and more over, have a word with the suppliers and get them onboard its a free way to advertise for them... so the MSA can afford to help out youngsters..Go Motorsport - RACE FOR REAL should be linked into clubs that are struggling to keep afloat....the MSA should spend some cash/resource on giving those clubs who have seen membership drop more help in advertising and promoting the club and its fixtures and help them get young people involved in it ...their fees for the "go motorsport " licence etc should be reduced.....a drive to get kids actually into it, also money should be available to take a normal car and make it into a racing car....helping kids develop skills not just on the track but beyond that! (technical and engineering competence..the RAF are running a campaign "If you can mend a chain...you can mend a helicopter"...why can't that also be used to get the young into MS?) subsidise their entry so that they can take part. build a team etc...all this would help promote the sport AND help the club therefore giving MSA more revenue from its registration, their membership to the MSA and their competitors eventual licence.


How many cars out there now of a "certain age" could be sourced and given over to a project like that?...loads

How many clubs (and Im talking all clubs not just organising clubs) are out there with dwindling numbers of members, out priced of putting on events because the big boys have all the fun?..loads...lots of little regional out back clubs that would benefit from a drive that is a win win for every single participant be it the supplier of the car, the equipment, the circuit who gets the race (or venue depending what discipline,) the club, the spectator (he /she finally has something good to see that should not cost the earth...though most spectators will still be little Johnny's family) and most of all the MSA because they will have boosted their membership and helped really promote REAL GRASS ROOTS MOTORSPORT......

and relax .....

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Back to Historics. John says about the cars he wants to watch not coming out any more. Are we going to get to the point where cars are too valuable, too old, spares too scarce that they won't be raced any more? With the traditional "Historic" cut off now being 50 years ago are we now at the zenith of Historic (and especially historic where there isn't the money) racing?

In which case there won't be too much racing for much longer!

Well, for a lot of the cars, this is already true and they will only get taken to headline events, but the ones I refer to have never been around much in historic racing, often because they have been pitted against upgraded, bigger engined and/or later cars. It's why I'm trying to persevere with the FLIERS even if so many cars are still not in race ready state. But there are one or two other areas/periods that I'd like to do something about which don't get touched much.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by chunder

For the price of any of those cars, you could buy something like a Dolomite, Escort, Rover and do some proper racing in something relatively nice to drive and be competitive after spending a few grand.

I have to pick you up on this view. I must assume that you have never competed in motorsport, or even built a car on your own for use in motorsport, and I base this assumption on what you write.

My experience will be no different to most/many on here, although my experience was gained a long, long time ago but I think that the principles are still relevant. I built one car virtually by myself, helped to build 3 others and assisted in prepping a 4th, so I know how to get my hands dirty.

You may (although I really doubt it) be right that you could spend a few thousand to get a historic car on to the track - how much is a few? - and, after you have tested it and developed it to suit your driving style, then the combination of you the driver and the car may become competitive. But the world doesn't stop revolving just because you have stepped on it. Generalising, you need to have a competitive spirit in the first place if you decide to go motor racing, and that being the case, there will be others against whom you will be racing that will be upset that you are now beating them, so they will spend more money on tweaking their steads to get the edge on you. You now find yourself slipping backwards, and it soon becomes more than a little tiresome when you find yourself being lapped by the leader, and worse yet when it becomes two or three times in a race. So, to become competitive again, you are forced to pour more of your hard earned cash into your project.

I do write from experience, although it was nearly 50 years ago. My stead was a humble third hand road-going Anglia, which I completely gutted and used the proceeds of the sale of all it's innards to actually pay for it. Although I had most of the machining of the new engine parts outsourced, I built the engine myself, but the tuning was done by a real mechanic. It started out life as a 1650 cc, and after the initial settling in period, the car/driver combination slowly moved up the result sheets over the next season or two, with a few cups and trophies to demonstrate my progress.

Then, in the third season, having already increased the engine capacity to coax out a few more gee-gees, I noticed ( ) that I was no longer running right at the front, and by the 4th or 5th season I had come to the sad conclusion that, unless I wanted to be a back-marker all my life, and that I needed to buy a new engine as there was nothing more that I could extract from the push-rod.

Now, up to this point, I had probably spent something in the region of £2,000 for the 5 seasons - sounds like nothing nowadays, but back in the late 60s it was quite a lot of money, especially when you consider that I bought my first house (2 bed semi) for £6,999 in 1971 - but on investigation, a new engine would have cost in the region of £10,000. It was a no brainer, as they say, and so my racing career shuddered to an inglorious finish. And, I suspect, that my tale is no different to that of hundreds of others, in that we come in all dewey eyed only to leave with our tails between our legs a couple of years later because we can't keep up with the development cost wars.

I don't know what series of racing you think would only cost a few thousand to be able to compete in, and I don't mean just participate, but I am sure that there is at least one fellow tenther who will be able to attest to the fact that it takes more than just a few thousand to get a Rover SD1 on to the grid towards the sharp end!

[chunder]

The armchair lot are only usually into driving, not racing. They are gamers, would you want kids that play CoD to join the army if theya re good at it? Kids that play FIFA to start playing football?

Theya re games nothing more, and we still ahd them decades ago.

It is getting at that kid with his clipboard waiting for an autograph, he has got himself to a track, clearly has passion and interest but probably no money. Get him in something.

More should be done with simulators, why isn't there a fleet of them at Silverstone or Brands where you can hop in and have a go without being charged tenner for 2 laps or something pathetic.

EVERYTHING is about profit, clubs, tracks, organisations, racing. The fan has been forgotten most of the time, and there is nothing to attract the racer.

I went to the Go Motorsport event at Silverstone, it was quite good, there was a lot there, but hardly any people. Clubs were there, different series. They made an affort. But there is apathy from the public, there must be a reason and I dont know what it is.

But I shouldnt be fidning out, the MSA should!

I could have raced if I wanted, I had the money, but there were twoo many barriers in place, storage, pointless expenses like tests and gear.

When all you really wanna do is try it

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by chunder

I could have raced if I wanted, I had the money, but there were twoo many barriers in place, storage, pointless expenses like tests and gear.

When all you really wanna do is try it

I thought the barrier was that you lived up to your screen name when you did a few laps of a circuit. As for tests and gear, I've never done a test day and relatively few track days so they aren't needed, gear, well you do need that unless you want to go back to the days of uncle Eric skidding on his arse in his best 3 piece suit over the start finish line at Brands while his car sailed over his head upside down.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by chunder

I could have raced if I wanted, I had the money, but there were twoo many barriers in place, storage, pointless expenses like tests and gear.

When all you really wanna do is try it

There's your answer, then!

You have too much money, and you just want to have a go to see if you like it. The majority of those that actually do race usually have a lack of money, but a really strong desire to participate in a hobby from which they derive much pleasure. What you see as barriers we see as mere obstacles to climb over or to go around, and we find the money to achieve our dream.

Your comment is one I would expect to hear from the likes of the children of the Russian billionaires "Daddy, we've got so much money, so give me some so that I can buy a racing car because I really liked playing that racing game on my PlayStation and I might like to do it in a real car".