Not a Spectator Sport

[bauble]

Other topics on this section bemoan the lack of ... well just about everything.

I make the following observations, based on my vast experience of life, love and motor sport. Stand by for a shattering conclusion!

Historic Motor Racing is not generally a spectator sport!!!

While the Classic and Revival here in the UK do attract large crowds, I can not think of any other series or meetings that bring in significant numbers of the paying public. Why is this significant? Because paying public means income to circuits, and in great numbers, advertisers who pay for the privilege.

I am sure (reasonably sure) that only the BTCC has a fan base that brings in the same people every time. Obviously the Grand Prix also attracts a crowd, but that is a one off event.

The majority of people who frequent this section appear to be participants in Historic Motor Racing either as preparers, providers or competitors or some combination of the three. Therefore it follows that the only income it has comes from these same people. No start money, little if any prize money, and probably (I really don't know) little sponsorship money.
Without star names and some TV coverage the prospects of things changing are slim, with the greatest respect, how many of you lot (I emphasise with respect here) attract spectators other family and friends?

The point is that Historic Racing is what you - the participants - make it!

Quite understandably all you want is a chance to race your old cars against each other and enjoy the experience, I bet you could care less if bauble comes to watch.

The HSCC is the closest there is to an organised Historic brand, and I have never noticed massed punters on the banks.

None of this is criticism, just observations, but if you want more attention and some income then the whole scene needs a massive overhaul and some serious marketing - just like the BTCC.


Bauble.

PS: A Mod suggested I should start more threads! Don't blame me.

[BertMk2]

The same is largely true of all national motorsport other than BTCC and Superbikes -it's not just historics. I'll pop along to a meeting if there are enough cars that I want to see in action - so things like the Super Touring championship are good news as there are more decent cars in one place. For me the Silverstone Classic is a difficult one - the grids are great (Super Touring, 90's GT's - excellent stuff!) but the price is horrific and the location poor (Silverstone is the worst circuit in the UK for the viewing experience).

[Tim Falce]

The problem is that we pay the clubs to race, the club pays the circuit owner to use the track. The circuit owner has his money up front so all his costs are covered. The circuit owner in probably 99.9% of the time gets all the all the gate fees so if they have already been paid and no doubt made a decent profit then why on earth would they want to go to the trouble and expense of marketing a meeting which would probably not attract enough extra income to cover their marketing expenses.
The clubs get no gate fees, they've made their profit or at least covered their costs from us when we pay them to race so why would they bother going to the expense of marketing a meeting for no recompense?
As for wanting to see bauble and his mates, it is nice to see a large crowd when you are racing, just go to Combe on any given race day. Even though personally I don't race to entertain anyone but myself I do know of people that like the adulation of others watching them so for some people you have a point.

You quote the BTCC, let's hope club racing never goes down that road as we have enough door banging at times as it is, we don't need any more plus if you want to see a good crowd then go to the American speed fest June 7th this year, not everyone's cup of tea but it's a very entertaining day and if the sun shines as it did last year you wont move for people.
One point about it not being a spectator sport is that I feel it's exactly the opposite, spectators generally have full access to everywhere including the pits at all but the likes of Goodwood so what more could you ask for. I bet you don't get that at an F1 meeting and from my very limited experience of BTCC, they are so far up their own arses I'd never bother going again.

[chunder]

I would suggest a number of reasons here.

My father and I regularly attended the Classic and Goodwood years ago, when they were reasonable decently priced.

But, the reasons were largely to see the cars, hear tham and get access to them. He loved being able to amble around the pits and we loved watching some of the racing.

However, the interest waned as prices increased and racing suffered. Goodwood turned into a "to be seen at" event, crowds were insane, prices skyrocketed and as an event it ended up being a chore rather than any fun. You get all the twitchers with their cameras and stands, you can't see unless you are 6ft tall and really what is the point?

As for the race events, again price is the determining factor. The Classic annoys me with its prices as you know. It seems an event tailored for a certain type, not for everyone. They are wanting certain types to be there, not everyone. I feel Silvserstone are using the Classic as a way oif recouping the F1 ad MotoGP host fees, very clever and they made something out of nothing. I shall try Donington this year, as that seems about where the Classic was a while ago.

As for the racing, some of it is superb. But some of it is also actually painful to watch. Watching people in F1 cars 30 seconds a lap off the pace and only there because of who they are disgusts me.

Watching guys in lovely cars bimbling up Goodwood is painful.

Now I understand the kit is worth a lot of money, I really do. But if that's the case give it to a Stretton, Hadfield etc and let them use it properly. If you can afford to buy it, give it someone good, and let the fans enjoy a 917 or 512 being thrashed rather than watching you getting overtaken by na roadgoing 911 as you are too scared and untalented to drive it properly. I know its harsh, but this is what other fans say to me.

The trend these days does seem to be for experienced, good drivers using the better cars, that is good.

Finally for general entertainment circuit racing suffers a lot. As Mr Falce says, the contact in BTCC is horrid. GARBAGE fella, it's the reason why people like it, same as NASCAR. You might stick your nose up at it, but that's why it is popular. it remains in position as the premier series because it delivers, it retains its impact, it is well put together and stays in its place.

I am not a huge fan, I think it is rather contrived, but i watch contact racing all the time in cars built for the job and there is more entertanment in one meeting then you get at historic meetings for a decade.

Circuit racing is and has been for years a series for participants, any version really. Why would I pay to watch you? if all you are gong to do is drive around put simply? if you are going rail it sideways, have a close race, fair enough. But why would I as a punter watch a field of Cortina's Imps and Mini's trundling round. If I was in one, fine, awesome, I am paying a vast amount for the privileege, but fine!

Only one really interesting circuit racing series is VSCC, and that is because the cars are fascinating, but not all of them.

Long term, I cant see much changing. There are few series these days that attract fans like Thundersaloons or the like did. A lot of meetings now are one make happy.

there is good stuff out there yes, and historic is at the forefront as it has a backbone of monied competitors and a good basis for a scene.

[simon drabble]

not surprising really - Classic and Revival offer sufficient diversions to make it interesting but for the most part club racing is like village cricket. Unless you are connected to the participants involved its very boring.

Combe and Thruxton are ok as they are small and you have a high chance of seeing a spill but your average clubbie meeting of indifferent cars and driving talent must make for very dull viewing!!

[BudLightJaguar]

So the problem in the UK is that historic racing is not a spectator sport? Here in Finland road course racing in general is not a spectator sport. Tracks are in the middle of nowhere, grids are small and there's zero number of off-track activities.

That's why the race day attendance has been approximately 10 people and a dog. Basically spectators show up only if there's Häkkinen, Räikkönen, Alonso or Vettel driving. If the weather's sunny. And someone else pays the ticket, food, drinks and petrol.

[courageous]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

The problem is that we pay the clubs to race, the club pays the circuit owner to use the track. The circuit owner has his money up front so all his costs are covered. The circuit owner in probably 99.9% of the time gets all the all the gate fees so if they have already been paid and no doubt made a decent profit then why on earth would they want to go to the trouble and expense of marketing a meeting which would probably not attract enough extra income to cover their marketing expenses.
The clubs get no gate fees, they've made their profit or at least covered their costs from us when we pay them to race so why would they bother going to the expense of marketing a meeting for no recompense?

Not historic, but to put this into perspective - a few years ago now but I'm sure it is still valid:

Donington Park (probably the best located circuit in the UK in terms of potentially getting a crowd) had a meeting in 2011 featuring

BOSS GP ('90s F1/Champ Car/F3000)
Britcar 4 hour race of +40 cars
Dutch Supercars +70 cars
Mazda MX5 cup +100 cars


The organisors arrived on the Thursday afternoon only to find out that not a single piece of PR had been done - not even dropping local press or radio a one liner "Formula 1 & Le Mans cars return to Donington - tickets £10"

[Normal Bloke]

I like club racing because it's cheap to enter and I might get into the top three and win a bottle of Pomagne! And I like racing at the Classic ('never had a sniff of Goodwood) because it's good to be part of a massive event. And it's local to me.

Except for the Classic when ALL competitors appear to be treated with respect, when my class (not historic) was tagged onto the BTCC in the 90s, we were treated like shoite and generally abused. When they "dropped us", it was like a breath of fresh air and the fun came back to racing

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by BudLightJaguar

So the problem in the UK is that historic racing is not a spectator sport? Here in Finland road course racing in general is not a spectator sport. Tracks are in the middle of nowhere, grids are small and there's zero number of off-track activities.

That's why the race day attendance has been approximately 10 people and a dog. Basically spectators show up only if there's Häkkinen, Räikkönen, Alonso or Vettel driving. If the weather's sunny. And someone else pays the ticket, food, drinks and petrol.

Wow!

Not bad that half the population of the country turn out to spectate at a race day.

[BudLightJaguar]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

Wow!

Not bad that half the population of the country turn out to spectate at a race day.

But remember, that happens only if there's Häkkinen, Räikkönen or Vettel. Won't happen if there's just Salo (Hell's Angels supporter), JJ (drunken sailor) or Vilander (Toni who?).

[one-two]

How many of us regularly watch non-league football?

[Clive Brown]

Me. Welling United of the Vanarama Conference.

[BudLightJaguar]

Originally Posted by one-two

How many of us regularly watch non-league football?

That's a good question. How come anyone even thinks motorsports should get huge crowds in every form? For example, the answer why I don't attend at FinRace competitions and rather go abroad is plain simple: there's nothing to see.

[Moosehead]

Football? What is that?

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

The problem is that we pay the clubs to race, the club pays the circuit owner to use the track. The circuit owner has his money up front so all his costs are covered. The circuit owner in probably 99.9% of the time gets all the all the gate fees so if they have already been paid and no doubt made a decent profit then why on earth would they want to go to the trouble and expense of marketing a meeting which would probably not attract enough extra income to cover their marketing expenses.
The clubs get no gate fees, they've made their profit or at least covered their costs from us when we pay them to race so why would they bother going to the expense of marketing a meeting for no recompense?.......

There ladies and gentlemen is the TRUTH....no ifs no buts you could close the tread there and then with that because Mr Falce has HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD WITH THE BIGGEST TRUTH HAMMER EVER.

You want big events?....you will pay through the nose for the entry...why?...cause you as a competitor gets to lap up the highlife briefly and the organisers have paid a fortune to promote it, with guest drivers ands stars...and rock bands and fairgrounds etc...something for all...at a cost ...but if you are talking grass roots .....then expect to see your friend and family in the paddock...not the general public.

[MGDavid]

I still want to know how I can race at the Spa Summer Classic cheaper than in the UK - yet the circuit throw the place open to speccies completely free of charge. And they provide full 24/7 paddock marshalling, and they lay in massive power generators so there's free hookup for all.

[chunder]

Because this country is a giant con that's why!

And they are presumably bankrolled by the Ecclestones still for the GP so dont need to necessarily recoup tens of millions back at other events like Silverstone do

[brands]

Having read through the three related threads..........

I am a paying spectator, I know my place.

[Paul D]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

I still want to know how I can race at the Spa Summer Classic cheaper than in the UK - yet the circuit throw the place open to speccies completely free of charge. And they provide full 24/7 paddock marshalling, and they lay in massive power generators so there's free hookup for all.

I'm afraid Chunder is right - there is an element of truth in 'The Great British Rip-off'! We seem to pay through the nose for most things here - why, I'm not sure, but I suspect it's because those with the power have realised we're stupid enough to put up with it!

Here's an example: when in New Zealand a couple of years ago, I attended their biggest historic motorsport festival at, arguably, the best circuit in New Zealand, Hampton Downs. This would be their Silverstone Classic, if you like.

The cost, to me, as a spectator, compared very favourably with the equivalent here - I think a weekend pass was around $60 NZ, or about 30 quid. OK, so the facilities there aren't a match for Silverstone. So what? Who cares? I saw some fairly exotic machinery and spent a weekend in glorious weather watching some tasty machinery being raced around a decent circuit. When you consider that the event took place in a country whose entire population is about the same as that of Manchester, I think it was a very impressive event.

But here's the really interesting bit for us, as competitors: I got talking to some of the guys racing fairly ordinary machinery - the sort of stuff most of us race in club events here - and they couldn't believe it when I told them how much it costs to race here! They told me that this particular event was expensive to enter, because of its status there - it's their 'Classic', remember - and that the entry fee was somewhere around $600 (£300). They consider that expensive! And for that, they got two weekend's racing (The festival takes place over two consecutive weekends, with most drivers getting to race both weekends) at the country's most prestigious event! Go figure!

When I asked them, then, how much a 'typical' meeting would be to enter, they said anywhere from $150 to about $300 (£75 to £150). Yes, yes, I know... before anyone familiar with New Zealand racetracks chimes in: I know that typically their tracks aren't on a par with what we have here, either from a driver's perspective or from a facilities perspective (Hampton Downs is pretty good though) - you'd probably compare them more to Mallory or Combe than you would to Silverstone or Donington.

Even so, that still leaves us paying through the nose to race here, and I'd love for someone, anyone, to explain to me just why that is, because it beats me!

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by brands

Having read through the three related threads..........
(

Yup, HRT is taking a lead from some of the other forum subsections- multiple related threads...

[Normal Bloke]

Originally Posted by Paul D

I'm afraid Chunder is right - there is an element of truth in 'The Great British Rip-off'! We seem to pay through the nose for most things here - why, I'm not sure, but I suspect it's because those with the power have realised we're stupid enough to put up with it!

Here's an example: when in New Zealand a couple of years ago, I attended their biggest historic motorsport festival at, arguably, the best circuit in New Zealand, Hampton Downs. This would be their Silverstone Classic, if you like.

The cost, to me, as a spectator, compared very favourably with the equivalent here - I think a weekend pass was around $60 NZ, or about 30 quid. OK, so the facilities there aren't a match for Silverstone. So what? Who cares? I saw some fairly exotic machinery and spent a weekend in glorious weather watching some tasty machinery being raced around a decent circuit. When you consider that the event took place in a country whose entire population is about the same as that of Manchester, I think it was a very impressive event.

But here's the really interesting bit for us, as competitors: I got talking to some of the guys racing fairly ordinary machinery - the sort of stuff most of us race in club events here - and they couldn't believe it when I told them how much it costs to race here! They told me that this particular event was expensive to enter, because of its status there - it's their 'Classic', remember - and that the entry fee was somewhere around $600 (£300). They consider that expensive! And for that, they got two weekend's racing (The festival takes place over two consecutive weekends, with most drivers getting to race both weekends) at the country's most prestigious event! Go figure!

When I asked them, then, how much a 'typical' meeting would be to enter, they said anywhere from $150 to about $300 (£75 to £150). Yes, yes, I know... before anyone familiar with New Zealand racetracks chimes in: I know that typically their tracks aren't on a par with what we have here, either from a driver's perspective or from a facilities perspective (Hampton Downs is pretty good though) - you'd probably compare them more to Mallory or Combe than you would to Silverstone or Donington.

Even so, that still leaves us paying through the nose to race here, and I'd love for someone, anyone, to explain to me just why that is, because it beats me!

Well I'll have a stab at that.......it's because, like it or not (and I don't), the UK is rock 'n' rolling and NZ and Australia aren't. Why do you think all their bankers are over here telling us what to do? We all toddle off over there on our gap year and go bunge jumping but they come over here FOR REAL and to stay. And if everyone is here and not there, prices go up.....ice cream, race entries, houses, beer, the lot. Its why Australia has such a chip on its shoulder insofar that it cannot recreate or match the cultures and traditions that have evolved here over many more centuries.
Just a theory. Me? I love the place (Australia) and would emigrate tomorrow but.....I'd miss proper brown beer and the permanently spectator packed Quarry bend at Combe.

[andy97]

We don't expect people to pay to watch pub football or club golf so why do we expect people to pay to watch club motorsports. Most of us are not any better than Sunday league footballers or handicap golfers, and if Ŵ are lucky some might be single figure handicap drivers but that's it. Let spectators in for free.

Yes, yes, health and safety etc but where there's a will there's a way and I don't see any stewards or many other facilities provided even if I pay to spectate.

[chunder]

Very6 very good point andy

Although I think these days you will pay to watch most club football even the non league stuff, and upwards of a tenner.

Club racing is good value for fans, I know if I,lived 10 miles form somewhere like Snett or Cadwell I would go there an awful lot as its a good day for a fan like me, sadly I dont have a track on my doorstep, and I choose my meetings (most of them non MSA) based on value, what I am going to see, friends going along and lastly, what is racing.

Look at the Red Bull events or the Renault events, yes they are bankrolled by mighty companies, bit look at the crowds, they all go away with a brochure, a can of whatever, and a feel good factor.

Stop looking to mkake a buck out of every damn thing and look ahead for godness sake, it's not hard to se the outcomes, there have been zillions of test cases already!

[bauble]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Yup, HRT is taking a lead from some of the other forum subsections- multiple related threads...

When I started this thread I was simply sort of 'summing up' what had already been well aired on other threads, but usually as a diversion from the original point, I was stating the haemorrhaging obvious, but from a non participants point of view.

The fact is that while people flock to the BTCC it is not mainly because they do tend to bump into each other on the odd occasion, but you do see close racing every time. Lots of passing and close quarter action. You rarely see that in Historics for very good reasons, but when a punter can see BMW, Ford, Audi, Vauxhalls etc they can identify with what is going on, but how many members of Joe Public would know a Dulon from an Argo, a Lotus 11 from an Elva.

It is no good bemoaning the lack of anything in historic racing as the only suppliers are the competitors, and that is you Mr Bell

Just so you know my favourite meeting of the year is the Bentley Drivers
Club, followed by the Spring Start, and anything that features Fiscar.

The man at the side of the track.

[Cookie2000]

What stopped me spectating regularly was when MSV started charging adult admission for 13 year olds! When under 16s were free, crowds were larger, even for the club meetings, and a good value family day out. Other families that I used to attend with also stopped visiting, as the price doubled. How do you bring a new generation into motorsport if the teenagers are priced out of attending? (The gate price for the wolds trophy weekend at Cadwell this year is £28, £112 for a family of 4!)