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28 Apr 2021, 20:41 (Ref:4048366) | #401 | ||
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Anyone willing to take a guess on stint lengths?
2020-spec P2s could usually run for about 40 minutes between stops but in the first ELMS race this year they were doing more like 45 because of the power cut. They are still running 75 litre tanks, and ELMS is still using the high downforce bodywork. The Toyota tank has increased from about 48 litres last year (I think) to 90 this year. Of course they have much less hybrid power and they can run the ICE at full power (520kW/700bhp) if they run out of charge or the hybrid system packs up, but at the expense of fuel consumption. The Alpine tank must be the same size as it was last year but I don't know what that was. 75 litres like the P2 it's based on? The car is running at last year's P2 power and weight, so maybe also around the 40 minute mark? I think the Glickenhaus tank is 110 litres. The BoP does specify an energy per stint value. Presumably this is to equalise stint lengths since max power is already restricted? Anyway, this could have an influence on the great Hypercar vs LMP2 fist fight over the race distance. |
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29 Apr 2021, 01:13 (Ref:4048374) | #402 | |||
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What is clear is that whatever happens people will know why and it was so bad and wrong. They are heroes. But between all this there will be a race. And I’m looking forward to it. Spa. Spa is ace. These cars are ace. Not as good as the Bs and Midgets you mention, but still ace. Is the class structure how I would make it? hell no. But it’s a race. And it’s looking fun. LMP2 close to LMH. Hey why not? let’s see how it pans out. Moaning that we only have a few cars near the front. Well, maybe not how we wanted, but hey, we don’t have to wait until 2023. LMP2 will be fun anyway for the race, whether it is close to LMH. Yes yes yes, “spec. class” Billy Idol moany moany. I agree, but it’ll be close and fun in those six hours. These six hours are at Spa. The top cars. How will that go? Toyota, totally new car. Reliability? And there are GT cars. At Spa. They are always good fun. And it’s Spa you miserable lot. |
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29 Apr 2021, 01:49 (Ref:4048379) | #403 | |
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Im glad they didnt change anything. They want Toyota and Alpine to prove their words and we will see what the outcome is.
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29 Apr 2021, 06:44 (Ref:4048388) | #404 | ||
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With there being no other major manufacturer entered, there is no incentive for Toyota to do any more than just sneak past the time of the 2nd fastest car - which is what they seem to have done.
The Alpine might be showing its true pace what with it being a mash-up of various regulation years, but again they've no reason to prove anything to the public/media during the tests. I'm still of the (outdated?) opinion that "no-one cares about anything other than Le Mans" so I'm not expecting any miraculous improvements during the Spa race - all in the name of getting a favourable BoP break for the 24 Hours. |
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29 Apr 2021, 14:29 (Ref:4048477) | #405 | |
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Gotta say there has not been a WEC race I have looked more forward than this one since Ford and BMW left GTE at the end of Le Mans 2019.
Not only you have the issue of Toyota vs LMP2 cars, but Corvette I think can certainly win GTE. And I will be cheering for the 2 girl cars as well. Stil think a Toyota will win in the end due to pit stop advantages and driver depth, but the LMP2 winner I can certainly see be on the same lap overall. Maybe a minute and half down to the Toyota after the 6 hours. |
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29 Apr 2021, 16:52 (Ref:4048509) | #406 | ||
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Find it abit weird that a hypercar is only around 12 seconds faster than a GT3 car. Id have expected more.
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29 Apr 2021, 20:36 (Ref:4048551) | #407 | ||
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29 Apr 2021, 21:01 (Ref:4048555) | #408 | |||
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Oreca 07 LMP2: less power / more weight / control GoodYear tire
= Oreca 07 "Hypercar": more power / less weight / bespoke Michelin tire Practice 1 results What am I missing here? Nothing comes to mind but industrial-scale bags of sand. This is beyond ludicrous. For the sake of argument, let's assume Toyota completely screwed up its LMH. But did Michelin supply Alpine square tires? Why is it only matching its LMP2 siblings despite Alpine's inherent advantages in every area? One can argue that LMH restricted aero performance is set to be very conservative. But the Alpine isn't running LMH aero. It's running an improved version of the same low-drag kit that P2 cars are running. Are we supposed to believe Michelin P1 tires are costing Alpine several seconds a lap against control rubber by GoodYear?! Quote:
held up by LMH car: 720hp / 1040 kg Are we supposed to believe that Toyota could be more competitive with a 1040-kilo 700-hp Supra with a wing? I think, the very diplomatic "There will be no change of BoP for Hypercar or LMP2 prior to, or during the opening race weekend at Spa" translates to "we call your BS! Feel free to lose overall to P2, if that's what you want". Last edited by Pandamasque; 29 Apr 2021 at 21:09. |
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29 Apr 2021, 21:51 (Ref:4048562) | #409 | ||
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Quote:
The tire on the Alpine is probably an underdeveloped RWD variant meant to be on a 90kg heavier Glickenhaus, which would give you similar problems to when they were running DP Continentals on old gen LMP2 cars. The Dunlopyear on the P2s is a control tire but what they've ended up using is the same as what they had in an open tire competition. |
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29 Apr 2021, 22:10 (Ref:4048566) | #410 | |
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I think you've hit the nail direct there with the tires. Alpine is not turning the tires on, either by setup(team desire for BOP) or design deficiency(doesn't match the car design) but I am willing to accept the car isn't punishing the tire enough to make it work and the window is very narrow for best times.
LMP2 is still using the same rubber so I would not expect much change outside of the end of the stints with the extra weight. But less wear on the rears maybe with less power and wheelspin. |
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30 Apr 2021, 14:21 (Ref:4048705) | #411 | ||
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The first “test” wasn’t on track, it was a test for the ACO - would they give in to politicking from whichever manufacturer shouts the loud€€€st?
They didn’t, they held their nerve in the opening skirmish in the BOP war, which will get increasingly bloody over the next few years. And what do you know? The Toyotas have magically found just enough pace to make sure they’re ahead of lmp2. |
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30 Apr 2021, 16:45 (Ref:4048740) | #412 | ||
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As I wrote in a post above. ACO called their BS. Suddenly Toyota finds 2 seconds and runs in practice 3 only 3 seconds shy of its LMP1H qualifying time last year. These cars are capable of low 3:2x at Le Mans.
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30 Apr 2021, 16:50 (Ref:4048741) | #413 | ||
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BUT WHAT ABOUT THE 3:30 LAPTIME THAT THE ACO KEEP NOT GOING ON ABOUT!
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30 Apr 2021, 17:27 (Ref:4048759) | #414 | ||
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Poor old Toyota. After losing ~300hp in peak power and gaining around 100kg in weight their dog slow "hypercar" is... wait a minute, it's only 1.1 seconds below best TS050 time in quali last year.
Clearly they need all the help they can get. |
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30 Apr 2021, 17:33 (Ref:4048760) | #415 | ||
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The ACO's EOT BOP procedure, which already brought LMP1 and LMP2 close together on times at some tracks.
In that case, Toyota were struggling with reduced engine and hybrid power. This time, they have a lot more engine power, but are coping with a 1030+kg car per tech regs for LMH/LMDH. Also goes to show that they were basically sandbagging until the ACO told them and Alpine (and the public) that further changes to LMP2 aren't feasible. |
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30 Apr 2021, 17:33 (Ref:4048762) | #416 | ||
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2019 pole time was 1:53.747. Relative to that it is about where you’d think.
And the improvements from FP1, to FP2, FP3 are very similar to last year? Not really sure we should be surprised by any of this. |
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30 Apr 2021, 17:34 (Ref:4048763) | #417 | ||
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The pole lap is a few tenths of a second off the best Toyota qually lap from last year but that was carrying lots of success handicaps.
Their pole time from the year before was exactly 7 seconds quicker. 1.53.747. |
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30 Apr 2021, 17:38 (Ref:4048766) | #418 | ||
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Anyway S2 improved from 56.7 of FP3 to 55.7 of qualifying, at the end toyota was just trolling everyone... I noticed that in S1 toyota improved in a range of 0.2-0.5s as well, maybe weren't they using all 520kw before qualifying? |
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30 Apr 2021, 17:40 (Ref:4048767) | #419 | ||
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Not saying they weren’t, but how do we know it was sandbagging. The improvement from one session to the next seams pretty natural to me?
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30 Apr 2021, 17:41 (Ref:4048770) | #420 | |
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It was all Toyota sand end the end folks. My earlier-in-the-week prediction of Toyota beating the LMP2 winner by 1 min 30 sec has increaed to 2 laps now.
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30 Apr 2021, 17:44 (Ref:4048772) | #421 | |
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How about a posting to mention the Estre/Jani Porsche 911 RSR...2 min 11.2 in a GT car around Spa! Wow I never thoughg a GT car could go that quick. That lap time is entering mid 2010s-spec LMP2 speed range.
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30 Apr 2021, 17:46 (Ref:4048774) | #422 | ||
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I expected some sandbagging, not that i like to see it. Still think Hypercar is quite slow for a class named "hypercar". Not sure if Alpine are still sandbagging, you have to hope so or Toyota will walk everything again this year.
Surprised by the GTE pole time today, very fast. Faster than the GT1 cars were able to manage with carbon brakes, more power in their last days. |
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30 Apr 2021, 17:48 (Ref:4048775) | #423 | ||
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GTE are heavier and less powerful but aero and tires are basically 3 or 4 generations ahead of pre2020 GT1 cars. |
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30 Apr 2021, 17:53 (Ref:4048778) | #424 | |
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Blame Aston Martin pressure and desire to have more build the SCG type cars. Only they took it up. It makes sense thinking back to the street based "prototype" ideas of the start. And now they are stuck with it even though we'll only get one real hypercar. IMSA will be closer with the pretty stickers and shadow lines to pretend it looks like a streetcar. I have more faith Audi and Porsche will be more like Mazda than Acura. Hell at least ESM/Nissan had color to make the lines looks a bit like a GT-R and others, at the front middle 3'
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30 Apr 2021, 17:53 (Ref:4048779) | #425 | |||
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Now we can safely state that LMH performance is already at the expected level (i.e. a bit faster than last year's LMP2), even though GR010 likely has more in potential. I suspect Toyota's real BoP game was not about P2 (decoy?), but about the Alpine. And Signatech's car is still not performing to the car's potential in its current spec. Expect the games to continue until the French flag drops on a Saturday afternoon in September. They "found" 4 seconds in a day. And that's after PV claiming that GR010 was always expected by be 1 second slower per kilometre than a TS050. |
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