Restart procedure after Safety Car period.

[one-two]

I guess the reason the "safety car line" rule has come to dominate the "anywhere you like" rule is that it's easier to monitor and enforce. As Rudolf says, if you don't enforce the rules it doesn't really matter what they are. But many of us have seen rules being enforced more rigorously in recent years. Rather than going through a simultaneous bunch of reports from posts all round the circuit, it must be easier to monitor compliance at one or two specific points?

[terence]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Hi Terence! Do you know why this rule was adopted, Snet' or other track?

Problem is that a lot of CoCs have differing versions of the ruling Gerard.
In effect as soon as the safety car is in the pitlane, the race restarts after the start finish line. That I think, is the general rule, hence the reason for getting(trying) to get everyone into the pre SC intervention. I think this is where the confusion comes in. Back markers are often the cause.

[Mike Bell]

I don’t think anyone would disagree that getting all competitors in a neat line behind the SC within a reasonable period of time is almost impossible in many cases. As said before, no one wants to be circulating behind the SC for several minutes after the track has been cleared, because A.N.Other is still half a lap away.....

With info being recorded from the transponders we all have, including sector times as well as complete laps, all the necessary info is in race control without having to rely on Marshals reports. However, the latter is good, as it then requires RC to check the data. Maybe what is lacking sometimes, is the manpower in RC to actually check through the info available?

But if drivers were allowed to overtake as soon as green flags replaced yellows and SC boards around the circuit, then the work load upstairs would be reduced, and the scenario that started the whole thread would be eliminated......

Going back to FCY procedure, can anyone confirm that cars are racing again, wherever they are on the circuit, as soon as green flags are shown? I can’t find any clarification on line!

[Gerard C]

Back to previous comments my feeling is that a SC procedure is better than nothing but not the best from a competitor's point of view. FCY or Code 60 are better and not supposed to change the gap between two cars.

Another question: do you have the same grid depending on if the start is a rolling one or not? As an example if the pole position is on the right for a standing start its moved to the left in case of rolling start. Is it the same in GB?
I won't ask who settled this rule at least in France…

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

........

Going back to FCY procedure, can anyone confirm that cars are racing again, wherever they are on the circuit, as soon as green flags are shown? I can’t find any clarification on line!

Yes, because it's covered by the existing yellow flag rules: racing resumes at the next marshal's post showing a green flag (it's just a very long yellow flag zone).

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

Yes, because it's covered by the existing yellow flag rules: racing resumes at the next marshal's post showing a green flag (it's just a very long yellow flag zone).

Of course.... Hence the reason I couldn’t find anything specific!

Thanks.

[SWCRacing]

Safety Car Regulations:
Event run under ISC - Refer to Appendix H Article 2.10
Event run under MSUK - Refer to Section Q Appendix 2

Full Course Yellow / Code 60 Regulations
Event run under ISC - Refer to Appendix H Article 2.5.5b
Event run under MSUK - Refer to Section Q Appendix 3 for Code 60 as FCY is not in the regs

Safety car lines 1 and 2 are there in International events to indicate where a competitor entering or leaving the pits under a safety car situation can overtake the safety car and other competitors when entering the pits or leaving the pits and rejoining the track. They do not allow any competitors still on the track to overtake another competitor.

All of the above should be highlighted in any driver briefing

[Mike Bell]

Ah, so the SC regs are in the blue book! In an appendix.... Thanks.

The MSUK is very clear in para 1.12 that overtaking is strictly forbidden until the start signal at the start/finish line is passed. I’m assuming that’s why UK organisers stopped allowing it.

But FIA ISC App H 2.9.15 doesn't state whether cars can or cannot overtake when green flags are shown, so must be at the discretion of organisers? I’ll have to dig up briefing notes from the last race......

At least we’re getting somewhere. Thanks SWC for pointing me in the right direction!

[SWCRacing]

Safety Car - ISC App H Article 2.10.10 states:

All the competing cars must then form up in line behind the

safety car no more than five car lengths apart, and overtaking,
with the following exceptions, is forbidden until the cars reach
the Line (or the next race neutralisation end point) after the
safety car has returned to the pit lane. Overtaking will be
permitted under the following circumstances:
– if a car is signalled to do so from the safety car;
– under Article 2.10.18;
– any car entering the pits may pass another car or the
safety car after it has crossed the first safety car line, as
defined under Article 2.10.2;
– any car leaving the pits may be overtaken by another car
on the track before it crosses the second safety car line, as
defined under Article 2.10.2;
– when the safety car is returning to the pit lane or its intermediate
position, it may be overtaken by cars on the track
once it has crossed the safety car line;
– any car stopping in its designated garage area whilst the
safety car is using the pit lane (see Article 2.10.14) may
be overtaken;

– if any car slows with an obvious problem.

I have made the word "Line" bold above. This is the Control Line, otherwise known as the finish line

[Mike Bell]

When I search for Appendix H it brings up 2012 or 2016 documents, neither of which have the wording you’ve copied!

I’ll have to try harder to find a current version......

Found it! Thanks again for your help.

[Gerard C]

Only this part "if any car slows with an obvious problem" can be discussed. Depending on the CoC interpretation a slowing car must leave the track limits before you're allowed to overtake it. In principle you're not allowed to "help" it doing so …

[Mike Bell]

If you’ve got a problem and make it known to following cars so that they can overtake, that should be enough.

But I would like to see the next paragraph being used more....

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

When I search for Appendix H it brings up 2012 or 2016 documents, neither of which have the wording you’ve copied!

I’ll have to try harder to find a current version......

Found it! Thanks again for your help.

Of course, wouldn't it be a lot easier to navigate/find the appropriate regulation(s) if we had a printed copy to consult?

[SWCRacing]

The current ISC and its relevant appendices are available on the FiA website under Sport, Regulations, International Sporting Code and Appendices

https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/123

The MSUK Blue Book is available online here

https://www.motorsportuk.org/News-Pu...tions/Yearbook

and if you want a hardcopy you need to email MUK and request one

As they are both PDFs, they are easily searchable for key words

[Mike Bell]

Thank you again. I found ISC App H yesterday via FIA and it’s now bookmarked!

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

But we’re still no closer to finding the reason why the rule was adopted!

FIA introduced it originally, I'm pretty sure for F1.

And since their whole approach to the Safety Car is to make it not the same as in America because they can't be seen to be adopting their idea, they've pretty much got it wrong from the start and continued getting it wrong with every amendment since. National bodies have then pretty much adopted the same, generally in the hope of avoiding confusion.

I've never understood the start line reasoning, if it's safe to race, it's safe everywhere, so get on and do it. The only issue is if flaggies aren't all on comms, and we're often not, then you can't put the greens out at the same time everywhere. But that's still less of a disadvantage than having to follow someone for half a lap.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Woolley

FIA introduced it originally, I'm pretty sure for F1.

And since their whole approach to the Safety Car is to make it not the same as in America because they can't be seen to be adopting their idea, they've pretty much got it wrong from the start and continued getting it wrong with every amendment since. National bodies have then pretty much adopted the same, generally in the hope of avoiding confusion.

I've never understood the start line reasoning, if it's safe to race, it's safe everywhere, so get on and do it. The only issue is if flaggies aren't all on comms, and we're often not, then you can't put the greens out at the same time everywhere. But that's still less of a disadvantage than having to follow someone for half a lap.

The voice of reason! Thank you.

[midgetman]

In karting we use the Battenburg flag (yellow/black squares) so the field closes up behind the leader. I saw it used on a car race track just the once, and it was a total disaster with random groups of cars driving at random speeds. Totally defeated the point.

As you say, if only there were a central point of reference with it all written down so we could refer to it online. You could print it in a book if you wanted, too. I'm not sure some clerks are totally au fait with the rule book either and apply their own "understanding".

Here's a thought. Motorsport UK are very active on social media these days, why couldn't they take one rule or procedure each week and highlight what to do and why you do it? Start with the safety car, of course! I always find the act of explaining something makes you ask questions of yourself.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[MartinSmith]

I was gonna go into a long speal with this.... but...

Mike, has your question been answered?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

I was gonna go into a long speal with this.... but...

Mike, has your question been answered?

I did wonder if you would post, Claire, but appreciate there have been other things on your mind.

As far as racing under MSUK regs are concerned, it seem black and white- No overtaking until passing the start line. The FIA ISC regulation also suggests the same, but is not worded quite so exactly.

Interestingly, the Race Director at the meeting referred to at the beginning reckoned it’s down to him whether to allow or not. Therefore the organiser is now getting a petition signed by many regular competitors to have the rule changed and allow overtaking as soon as green flags are waved. We’ll see what happens......

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by midgetman

......... I'm not sure some clerks are totally au fait with the rule book either and apply their own "understanding".

Here's a thought. Motorsport UK are very active on social media these days, why couldn't they take one rule or procedure each week and highlight what to do and why you do it? Start with the safety car, of course! I always find the act of explaining something makes you ask questions of yourself.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Why have you got to be spoon fed? Why has someone got to explain it several times to you, .. . Sorry I am not having a go at you in particular Max you know that but the above statement ... is typical of a competitor who actually "cannot be arsed" (excuse my french)

The deployment of a safety car is explained several times

1 its explained in the blue book (page 290/291)
2 Its online (go to MotorsportUk and do a search) ... the Blue book is ONLINE peeps
3 For the event in question, it will be in the supplementary regs which as a competitor you should read
4 it will be explained at the drivers briefing which is mandatory to attend and thats when you think (as a competitor) "I've heard it all before" ... but you see, for that particular event you haven't, there maybe changes to the track/event/regs that have happened since you were last there or since you last raced with the organiser ..... THATS why we like you to attend and its there that the magic really happens... for there you can INTERACT with the "powers that be" by putting your hand up when a clerk like me is standing there not for their own benefit and say "Claire, what you have just described regarding the safety car is different slightly to the general regulations in the blue book, can you tell me why" and I will then list things like

1 The track License here requires that we do Blah Blah
2 The Series/Championship rules require this because blah blah
3 Past experience has found that.... blah blah
4 Given the technology here we will be using smoke signals!


and, if you have an issue with that still, you could

1 take it up with the stewards of the event including the MotorsportUk steward
2 lodge a complaint to MotorsportUK
3 Not attend

As for clerks not knowing, they should do, we do actually have a form of CPD which requires attendance, but also, just like you can, we are informed of rule changes AS THEY HAPPEN by the Motorsport UK (register for updates and you will be amazed!!!)

Now, one more spoon for the king!!!

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

I did wonder if you would post, Claire, but appreciate there have been other things on your mind.

As far as racing under MSUK regs are concerned, it seem black and white- No overtaking until passing the start line. The FIA ISC regulation also suggests the same, but is not worded quite so exactly.

Interestingly, the Race Director at the meeting referred to at the beginning reckoned it’s down to him whether to allow or not. Therefore the organiser is now getting a petition signed by many regular competitors to have the rule changed and allow overtaking as soon as green flags are waved. We’ll see what happens......

Have you checked the Series regs Mike? These supersede the general regs as has probably been pointed out and where there is "conflict" as such, providing the regs have been approved by the governing body in question, then they will take preference not the general rules

Also, the circuit licence can effect the way deployment is carried out

[Mike Bell]

Thanks Claire. The Series Regs do indeed include the rule. The comprehensive briefing notes always given out (and read by me, at least ) also repeat the ISC App H wording.

As I said couple of posts ago, it will be interesting to see if the competitors are listened to....

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Thanks Claire. The Series Regs do indeed include the rule. The comprehensive briefing notes always given out (and read by me, at least ) also repeat the ISC App H wording.

As I said couple of posts ago, it will be interesting to see if the competitors are listened to....

indeed. You will recall with 360, our start procedure was not as per general rules... you didn't start racing until you crossed the line.you went in two by two formation .. some complained about it at the briefings...but usually its for a reason.(it in our opinion made it safer... which we proved) be it good or bad. Clerks normally have a reason and remember they are only human ..

Reminds me of a certain female Clerk before my time who was told by a marshal that she should get down from the pit wall... "You cant go there" said the marshall, to which she replied " My love I'm the Clerk of the Course... I can go where i f***king like"...

That was not me.... people on here will know who it was though

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

Reminds me of a certain female Clerk before my time who was told by a marshal that she should get down from the pit wall... "You cant go there" said the marshall, to which she replied " My love I'm the Clerk of the Course... I can go where i f***king like"...

Love it!