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Old 28 May 2020, 21:41 (Ref:3979033)   #421
Richard Casto
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
How so? Ferrari were happy to supply the A1GP spec car. I don't think a 'engineering battle' is necessary or desirable, but with balance-of-performance and fixed regulated pricing I don't see having two chassis as being a problem for Indycar.
Work and drama on the part of IndyCar to get them back to where they are today. Even then, with a strategy of BoP, it's likely that one chassis will have pros/cons of the other and it may be different depending upon type of track.

Would teams have to declare one type of chassis for the entire season or would you have wealthy teams having both and selecting which to use on a race by race basis?

BoP on engines is easier to do. Especially if they are relatively simple engines.

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Old 29 May 2020, 12:45 (Ref:3979148)   #422
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Work and drama on the part of IndyCar to get them back to where they are today. Even then, with a strategy of BoP, it's likely that one chassis will have pros/cons of the other and it may be different depending upon type of track.

Would teams have to declare one type of chassis for the entire season or would you have wealthy teams having both and selecting which to use on a race by race basis?

BoP on engines is easier to do. Especially if they are relatively simple engines.

Richard
Two different chassis sounds overly complicated and very likely cost prohibitive. Irrc, the last time a team ran two chassis was Target Chip Ganassi in the 2006 IRL IndyCar season, when they specifically used the Dallara on ovals and the Panoz G-Force on road tracks.
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Old 2 Jun 2020, 21:32 (Ref:3979882)   #423
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
How so? Ferrari were happy to supply the A1GP spec car. I don't think a 'engineering battle' is necessary or desirable, but with balance-of-performance and fixed regulated pricing I don't see having two chassis as being a problem for Indycar.


Marco Andretti in Ferrari

Although the scenario on who actually built the A1GP car seems complex...


https://www.racecar-engineering.com/.../a1gp-ferrari/
Note that I said "as described here". A1GP was a completely different situation to what was described before, lol.
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Old 3 Jun 2020, 06:37 (Ref:3979911)   #424
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
How so? Ferrari were happy to supply the A1GP spec car. I don't think a 'engineering battle' is necessary or desirable, but with balance-of-performance and fixed regulated pricing I don't see having two chassis as being a problem for Indycar.


Marco Andretti in Ferrari

Although the scenario on who actually built the A1GP car seems complex...


https://www.racecar-engineering.com/.../a1gp-ferrari/
Ferrari didnt supply the car - indeed when the prototype arrived in Maranello for a test the badge was removed, they were built in UK The engine supply suited them as it provided a direct injection test bed for future GT motors
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Old 12 Jul 2020, 01:50 (Ref:3987537)   #425
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Ferrari are in an interesting place at the moment so what will they do and can F1 as a brand tolerate them as back markers or perhaps their bluff should be called on their many calls to leave the sport. It would be an interesting debate whether they have brought the sport into disrepute via their alleged cheating and the NDA that subsequenlty quashed disclosure of what ever did or didn't happen and at whose behest that NDA was put in place. Was it to protect Ferrari's value on the stockmarket for instance or to protect the inability of the FIA to detect and prevent cheating of this nature. Corporate misbeaviour in public companies can result in legal proceedings BTW.

Another issue that can be raised is how the drivers did not know of any cheating because their cooperation would be needed and there would be talk within the team of what was going on at the time. So can the drivers be blamed for driving cars that they knew were not legal, in the past this question has always been ignored when it was patently obvious the drivers knew and profited from the cheats. Why aren't drivers punished for driving cars that they know are not legal?

The NDA is the problem not the cheating itself. In every other cheating case there has been absolute transparency as far as we are aware but this time the NDA prevents that and the other teams could rightfully say that if it was good enough for our cheating to be publicly acknowledged then what is different this time. Trying to bat this away with comparing this episode of cheating with other major cheats in the past is not the point at all, the NDA is the point.

I wonder if LeClerc is happy with joining Ferrari as he was and thinks his long term contract is such a good thing now. Certainly if this period of bad performance goes on right through hs existing contract then it will definitely harm his career prospects of getting into another team that has a chance of making him WDC some time before he retires. It seem that Ferrari do not have a good record of creating drivers to be WDC when compared to other teams so it could be pressional suicide to join them in that pursuit. it will be interesting if Vettel opens up and talks but he won't do that because other teams would not employ him in fear he would do the same to them so perhaps he might retire then open up.

Perhaps Karma is an appropriate word for what is happening.
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Old 13 Jul 2020, 09:33 (Ref:3987857)   #426
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I really don't understand why everyone thinks Ferrari is so important and deserves special treatment. They are just a long-standing team that has had some good times and some bad times.

Yet they get financial and other favours from the FIA/FOM/F1. Commentators keep saying that F1 needs Ferrari to be successful, they get excited when they are and bemoan their failures. I could/should/would be unaffected by it all but the contrarian in me results in me enjoying Ferrari's discomfort. Not because of the team themselves but because everyone else is fawning over them.

The off-season "agreement" over last year's engines shows the favouritism they enjoy. No other team gets to keep their misdemeanours under wraps. Clearly the 2019 Ferrari engine was illegal in some way, yet they have kept all their points from last year, they received no penalty of any kind, and they even had the nature of the illegality hushed up. Compare that with "spygate" when McLaren were fined $100m for receiving confidential technical information from another team (Ferrari, coincidentally or not).

The performance of the Ferrari engine in all cars this year shows that when it is legal, it is probably the worst engine in F1 rather than the best.

Poor Carlos Sainz must be wondering what sort of mistake he has made with his 2021 contract. Ferrari slow and in disarray, while McLaren is in renaissance.
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Old 13 Jul 2020, 10:08 (Ref:3987865)   #427
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Everywhere says that whatever was illegal about their PU last year is a total secret, but the Autosport F1 podcast pretty openly discussed that they were fiddling fuel flow sensors and injecting more than allowed when they knew that the sensors weren't taking a reading. Have I missed something there?

Not sure how to feel about yesterdays entanglement. Did the sausage kerb bounce Leclerc's car up into the air? Would they have come together with that bunny hop?
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Old 13 Jul 2020, 10:47 (Ref:3987876)   #428
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Ferrari really look out of sorts and in my view need a fresh approach. They’ve always had their dark days lest we forget, but they always manage to come back once they’ve found the right approach to take. Wonder if we will see some staff changes before 2021?
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Old 13 Jul 2020, 11:06 (Ref:3987882)   #429
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Ferrari really look out of sorts and in my view need a fresh approach. They’ve always had their dark days lest we forget, but they always manage to come back once they’ve found the right approach to take. Wonder if we will see some staff changes before 2021?
i think staff changes are given, they need to blame someone, they just need to decide who
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Old 13 Jul 2020, 11:08 (Ref:3987883)   #430
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Everywhere says that whatever was illegal about their PU last year is a total secret, but the Autosport F1 podcast pretty openly discussed that they were fiddling fuel flow sensors and injecting more than allowed when they knew that the sensors weren't taking a reading. Have I missed something there?
I need to listen to that podcast, but there was a few posts on F1technical.net that provided a very workable theory as to what was going on. The method in the theory would also be hard to implement with the addition of a second flow meter (as has been mandated by the FIA).

In the end, its likely that everyone knows it was illegal and how it worked, but direct evidence of its usage may be hard to prove. The method in the theory would not show up in the data. The method also could both use more or LESS fuel than the sensor reports so you could use both modes at different times and average out over a longer period of time (lap or race length ) to a flow level that is legal.

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Old 13 Jul 2020, 13:06 (Ref:3987917)   #431
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Not sure how to feel about yesterdays entanglement. Did the sausage kerb bounce Leclerc's car up into the air? Would they have come together with that bunny hop?
I am pretty sure it was not a sausage kerb..... watching the onboard camera from Raikonnen's Alfa behind it looks like Leclerc's left rear wheel hit Vettels right rear and it was that which launched Leclerc. I guess that both being the driven wheels that caused a greater effect.
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Old 13 Jul 2020, 13:08 (Ref:3987918)   #432
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I am pretty sure it was not a sausage kerb..... watching the onboard camera from Raikonnen's Alfa behind it looks like Leclerc's rear wheel hit Vettels right rear and it was that which launched Leclerc
Correct, that's exactly how I saw it too.
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Old 13 Jul 2020, 13:28 (Ref:3987923)   #433
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Whatever, Leclerc messed up.
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Old 13 Jul 2020, 14:30 (Ref:3987945)   #434
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Old 13 Jul 2020, 14:40 (Ref:3987953)   #435
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I have found the internets response to the incident somewhat interesting. Vettel, like Lewis, is one of those drivers who can do no right. Even when he is driven into by his team mate, it somehow still becomes him being the bad guy. Comments like "At least Leclerc is more humble than Vettel" being posted. People cannot help but find an excuse to hate Vettel. Similar to Lewis - he could save a child from a burning building, and the comments would be "Why not 2 children?".

F1 itself is partly responsible for this weird fanaticism that we see now. The way the radios are edited especially is extremely 1 dimensional. Building a personality around the drivers. They want drivers to have single personality traits, like they are sitcom characters. Leclerc is the likeable one, so lets portray him nicely. Even when he has a ridiculous rant and demands the Hockenheim run off be changed because he crashed - we'll ignore that because it doesn't fit our narrative. I'm not sure Charles is as squeaky clean as what he is shown as. When you strip away the way F1 portrays the drivers, Leclerc is a LOT like early Vettel. He drives well, he makes mistakes, he has rants you don't agree with, but then can do well in the media (Leclerc on game streaming is very similar to how Vettel was when he appeared on Top Gear).

I firmly believe if Ferrari don't change their management structure from the top down, they will not win a title, and Leclerc will follow the same footsteps as Vettel and Alonso before him. He'll get annoyed, he'll make stupid mistakes, he'll bottle it, and he'll end up with nowhere to go. And it'll partly be down to Ferraris inability to do basic stuff.

Leclerc can, and should win titles. But so should have Alonso and Vettel with Ferrari. And whilst you can point fingers at both of those drivers for not achieving it, you can also find plenty of Ferrari screw ups that shouldn't happen. I believe Leclerc should win a title - I just don't think it will be with Ferrari.

Max may find the same at Red Bull for different reasons. Horner is like a child with ADHD. He and Marko are fascinated with young talent. So, again, like Vettel and Danny Ric, if Max is in a seat and hasn't won a title (or even if he has), and a new young kid comes along, Max will get booted out quicker than a COVID sufferer not wearing a mask, and wondering wtf he did wrong. Meanwhile Horner will be like "Max? Max....? I think I knew a Max once".

Last edited by Akrapovic; 13 Jul 2020 at 15:01.
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