Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Single Seater Racing > Formula One

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 3 Dec 2019, 23:44 (Ref:3944642)   #76
peterelise
Racer
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 129
peterelise should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWill2073 View Post
Maybe I didn't explain it well enough, because I don't think it's pie in the sky. If I look at every f1 team, other than racing point, I can see some value. Alfa romeo has giovanazi who is a Ferrari driver. Williams, as bad as they are, will have one pay driver, but one talented young driver who is worth paying attention to in Russell, who has mercedes ties. Haas is next worst in this regard to racing point, as grosjean is in the perez camp imo, but magnussen is at least still young, tho doesn't seem to be likely to go much higher. Also, no manufacturer tied drivers. Renault has/had 2 good ones, did and will again next year. Torro rosso has one replaceable, brings Russia money guy, but also gasly. Now, with kyviat and albon, even that was hard to find much value imo, except albon has shown talent.



What I'm getting at, is I don't mind a pay driver on a team, but if you're gonna have one, have a young, rising stud in the other seat, or a championship contender. The problem with racing point is, the pay driver is the young one and the team owner (daddy) likely doesn't want to put a stud young rider or championship caliber guy there to embarrass his son. Hence, a non-descript, replacement level older guy, in perez. Thus, not providing any value to my viewership, making me not care if they were gone, and seeing no difference between 18 cars without them or 20 with them.



All just my opinion, of course, as one single fan.

Have to say I don’t share your opinion of Perez. Sure he had personal sponsorship but he isn’t spending family money to buy his seat. I personally don’t like the fact he comes across as a moaner and won’t take responsibility for his mistakes (last season with Ocon in particular irked me) but I feel he is a driver who is definitely there on merit. He has had some wonderful performances historically getting midfield cars on the podium and over full seasons has acquitted himself well against the likes of Hulk and Ocon.

And as for Mr Stroll only wanting him because he won’t show up his son, I think you are also being grossly unfair. The evidence is that he absolutely outperformed Lance by a meaningful amount and was not hobbled in his ability to do so. Perez is also one of the best drivers in a midfield car so it is harsh to accuse Mr Stroll of putting a muppet in to partner his son. His main “sin” at this point is that he isn’t a young gun but I would suggest his performance this year in terms of points scored relative to what the car was capable of shows he has done a great job - he finished in 10th, 2 points behind Ricciardo, and if you take into account that Red Bull have 3 drivers ahead of him in the points because they shared a car between Gasly and Albon, then arguably he finished 3rd in the best of the rest comp behind Sainz and Ricciardo and importantly ahead of a young gun in Norris (clearly had a better car at his disposal) and Hulk (also in a better car). Given the equipment available to him that seems like an outstanding achievement.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
peterelise is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Dec 2019, 01:04 (Ref:3944648)   #77
RWill2073
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,515
RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!
I see your point. Perez is decent. I don't view him as all that good, but he has been good on occasion. I also would guess he's good at development or setup, and of course has experience, all of which helps aid baby stroll in having as good a car as possible. But if you look at the grid, there's not really any worse driver that daddy stroll could have put there that isn't either very close to Lance's age, comes with money like perez, or is good at setup or development or at least has experience. Like, if he was interested in having a competitive second car, why wouldn't he have kept ocon instead, who looked better than perez last year? Money, and ocon is about Lance's age and experience, so if he dominates lance, there's no excuse. When the veteran does, theres at least some excuse.
RWill2073 is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Dec 2019, 05:11 (Ref:3944659)   #78
Alan52
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Australia
Glenmore Park
Posts: 1,634
Alan52 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridAlan52 should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWill2073 View Post
I see your point. Perez is decent. I don't view him as all that good, but he has been good on occasion. I also would guess he's good at development or setup, and of course has experience, all of which helps aid baby stroll in having as good a car as possible. But if you look at the grid, there's not really any worse driver that daddy stroll could have put there that isn't either very close to Lance's age, comes with money like perez, or is good at setup or development or at least has experience. Like, if he was interested in having a competitive second car, why wouldn't he have kept ocon instead, who looked better than perez last year? Money, and ocon is about Lance's age and experience, so if he dominates lance, there's no excuse. When the veteran does, theres at least some excuse.
Your statement that Ocon looked better than Perez in 2018 is at the very least arguable.
Alan52 is online now  
Quote
Old 4 Dec 2019, 07:37 (Ref:3944672)   #79
peebee2
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3,249
peebee2 User had had their licence endorsedpeebee2 User had had their licence endorsed
Lol, if he was interested in having a competitive second car the drivers would be Perez and Ocon. He bought the team so Lance could drive.
peebee2 is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Dec 2019, 10:03 (Ref:3944697)   #80
S griffin
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,325
S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!
There have been plenty of teams that have run drivers that pay the bills to keep them going. Williams did it in the 70s for example.
S griffin is offline  
__________________
He who dares wins!
He who hesitates is lost!
Quote
Old 4 Dec 2019, 11:47 (Ref:3944712)   #81
RWill2073
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,515
RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by peebee2 View Post
Lol, if he was interested in having a competitive second car the drivers would be Perez and Ocon. He bought the team so Lance could drive.
Well, obviously, that would be a better pairing. And it would fit what I'm talking about: a py driver bringing money and a young, rising stud in the second seat. Giving me personally some value in them being on the grid. That was my main point, that an 18 car grid without stroll and perez is no different than a 20 car grid with them. So the original post I responded to was whether it was worth keeping the 2 cars on grid. To me, it's not. Doesn't help anything at all.
RWill2073 is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Dec 2019, 12:08 (Ref:3944716)   #82
S griffin
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 18,325
S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!S griffin is going for a new world record!
That’s ridiculous. Fact is they are worth being on the grid in the long run. It’s early days, but just remember how Force India went from being a backmarker to an occasional podium visiter. There is time for Racing Point to be up there
S griffin is offline  
__________________
He who dares wins!
He who hesitates is lost!
Quote
Old 4 Dec 2019, 12:11 (Ref:3944717)   #83
steve_r
Veteran
 
steve_r's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Lord Howe Island
European Capital of Culture 2008
Posts: 3,519
steve_r is going for a new world record!steve_r is going for a new world record!steve_r is going for a new world record!steve_r is going for a new world record!steve_r is going for a new world record!steve_r is going for a new world record!steve_r is going for a new world record!
Perez scored more points than Ocon and the two of them were very well matched, so I am not following your logic that Racing Point's existence is pointless due to the fact that they have Perez in the car instead of Ocon.

You would rather have less cars on the grid - OK - each to their own. I assume you will pretty much on your own on that point.

Perez was my driver of the day for his brilliant drive in the final race of the season - where he drive brilliantly to beat drivers such as Ricciardo, Hulk, Sainz and Norris.
steve_r is offline  
__________________
It's just my opinion.
Quote
Old 4 Dec 2019, 13:35 (Ref:3944735)   #84
GT6
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
England
MAIDSTONE, KENT, ENGLAND
Posts: 11,686
GT6 is going for a new world record!GT6 is going for a new world record!GT6 is going for a new world record!GT6 is going for a new world record!GT6 is going for a new world record!GT6 is going for a new world record!GT6 is going for a new world record!
Oh boy some people do not actually understand what F1 is about, we need full grids and that will always mean some cars are less competitive that others. If F1 is to survive it needs to attract spectators, viewers, sponsors and all that goes with it. Saying that teams should not be there just because they are running on a lower budget or have pay drivers will cause the death of F1 if grids shrink so will revenue and as less money and less interest then hits the teams left they to will struggle and then the take over of formula E will eventually happen, but before that i will have long stopped watching it anyway.
GT6 is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Dec 2019, 13:51 (Ref:3944737)   #85
E.B
Veteran
 
E.B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
United Kingdom
About 7kms East of Albert Park Melbourne
Posts: 6,034
E.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve_r View Post
Perez was my driver of the day for his brilliant drive in the final race of the season - where he drive brilliantly to beat drivers such as Ricciardo, Hulk, Sainz and Norris.
.... the latter with a brilliant pass by Perez on the last lap. (Also my driver of the race)
E.B is online now  
Quote
Old 4 Dec 2019, 17:33 (Ref:3944795)   #86
RWill2073
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,515
RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by GT6 View Post
Oh boy some people do not actually understand what F1 is about, we need full grids and that will always mean some cars are less competitive that others. If F1 is to survive it needs to attract spectators, viewers, sponsors and all that goes with it. Saying that teams should not be there just because they are running on a lower budget or have pay drivers will cause the death of F1 if grids shrink so will revenue and as less money and less interest then hits the teams left they to will struggle and then the take over of formula E will eventually happen, but before that i will have long stopped watching it anyway.
I didn't say any of that lol. I tried to point out how pretty much every other team, rich or "poor", good or bad, with/without pay drivers, had some value in following them, and them being there. Even William's with either latifi or kubica, has a talented young rising stud in the second worth paying attention to. Man, I didn't want to start a long argument or anything, but I don't think people are understanding what I'm saying or I'm not making clear, so I end up feeling like im repeating myself.

Yes, f1 has and will have and probably needs pay drivers to keep it going. And if a team has one of their two drivers being that, fine. (Hello, latifi). But if you're going to be worth paying attention to, or provide any entertainment value, (which is kinda the bottom line), the second seat should be something to dream on. With racing point, you have two paying drivers, with nothing to dream on in the way of competitiveness, because they have not one, but two pay drivers.

And I conceded earlier I may be more down on perez than others. I just think at this point he's in the grosjean range of just taking up a seat that isn't really going anywhere. There again, with haas, you can at least squint to see some upside in magnussen, especially since he's still young, to make them worth watching. So perez was comparable with ocon - in ocons rookie year, as perez was a veteran, while causing wrecks to ocon (moreso than the other way around). I just am not impressed. Maybe if he was younger to indicate more upside, maybe. But I still concede I may underrating him. But, does anyone here think he would ever deserve the second mercedes or red bull seat? Just for comparisons sake, ask the same about Norris, russell, ocon, giovanazi (less so, but he is a ferrari driver), etc.... Where does perez stack up when looking at it that way?

Of course I want more cars on the grid, not less. But i just get no value from that team at all, because they might as well be nonexistant, because with that driver pairing, they pretty much are. There is no upside to dream on, only a play toy for the rich and a cash cow.
RWill2073 is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Dec 2019, 18:16 (Ref:3944804)   #87
Aysedasi
Team Crouton
20KPINAL
 
Aysedasi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
England
Lymington, New Forest, England
Posts: 39,527
Aysedasi is the undisputed Champion of the World!Aysedasi is the undisputed Champion of the World!Aysedasi is the undisputed Champion of the World!Aysedasi is the undisputed Champion of the World!Aysedasi is the undisputed Champion of the World!Aysedasi is the undisputed Champion of the World!Aysedasi is the undisputed Champion of the World!Aysedasi is the undisputed Champion of the World!Aysedasi is the undisputed Champion of the World!Aysedasi is the undisputed Champion of the World!Aysedasi is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Sorry, but I just don't see that at all...
Aysedasi is offline  
__________________
96 days...
Quote
Old 4 Dec 2019, 19:04 (Ref:3944824)   #88
chillibowl
Veteran
 
chillibowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Canada
winnipeg, canada
Posts: 9,719
chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!chillibowl is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by RWill2073 View Post
...Yes, f1 has and will have and probably needs pay drivers to keep it going. And if a team has one of their two drivers being that, fine. (Hello, latifi). But if you're going to be worth paying attention to, or provide any entertainment value, (which is kinda the bottom line), the second seat should be something to dream on. With racing point, you have two paying drivers, with nothing to dream on in the way of competitiveness, because they have not one, but two pay drivers...
i can see the point you are trying to make but in order to make your point, i think, you are discounting the level of popular support/fanbase Checo has and by extension just how important/valuable that support is.

popular support is a hard thing to quantify and its value is subjective but look at the Mexican GP (which arguably might not exist without Checo on the grid) or the number of followers a person has on social media (as of early 2018 Checo was the 4th most followed on the grid).

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12...n-social-media

his millions of followers (i would guess) far outweighs the number followers the team itself has...in this age of social media, Perez is massively important to this team and is possibly the only reason anyone actually follows that team.

arguably i would even say he was/is more valuable to FI/RP then SV is to Ferrari.
chillibowl is offline  
__________________
Home, is where I want to be but I guess I'm already there
I come home, she lifted up her wings guess that this must be the place
Quote
Old 4 Dec 2019, 20:03 (Ref:3944848)   #89
wnut
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,088
wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!
and yet the sport can do without Fred's 6 million followers and his undoubted talent. There is something pretty broken for a sport that represents itself as the apex of motorsport.

I think RWill20173's post would be far better applied to Williams than Racing Point, the latter are at least trying to be competitive whereas Williams only seem to be taking everyone's money and running! Start and park mentality.
wnut is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Dec 2019, 20:10 (Ref:3944849)   #90
RWill2073
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,515
RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!RWill2073 has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
i can see the point you are trying to make but in order to make your point, i think, you are discounting the level of popular support/fanbase Checo has and by extension just how important/valuable that support is.

popular support is a hard thing to quantify and its value is subjective but look at the Mexican GP (which arguably might not exist without Checo on the grid) or the number of followers a person has on social media (as of early 2018 Checo was the 4th most followed on the grid).

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12...n-social-media

his millions of followers (i would guess) far outweighs the number followers the team itself has...in this age of social media, Perez is massively important to this team and is possibly the only reason anyone actually follows that team.

arguably i would even say he was/is more valuable to FI/RP then SV is to Ferrari.
Good point. And I will again concede that perez does have value to the grid in the way you describe. You're definitely right about his fan support.

The only thing I would push back on with that, is that racing point would be more relevant (possibly) with say, a george Russell there instead. I say that because they would then be apart of the silly seasons, draw focus because one of the possible replacements for bottas is there, so let's focus on how good he does in that car, etc... whether that offsets Perez's fanbase, idk.

But perez on a different team, paired with another young hotshoe, creates another team worth following, for two reasons. Perez's fanbase, and the young up and coming driver (or older guy like a kimi or Ricciardo).
RWill2073 is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Dec 2019, 23:54 (Ref:3946040)   #91
wnut
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 8,088
wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!wnut has a real shot at the championship!
Interesting article here from Mark Hughes on the breach of the declared fuel weight in Leclerc's Ferrari:

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/o...nd-controversy

It seems clear that the only reason to breach this rule would be to exceed the maximum fuel flow regulation, so why was the car not simply DSQ'd? Was the other car also breaching the regulation?
wnut is offline  
Quote
Old 11 Dec 2019, 12:07 (Ref:3946128)   #92
Richard C
Veteran
 
Richard C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 5,803
Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!Richard C is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by wnut View Post
Interesting article here from Mark Hughes on the breach of the declared fuel weight in Leclerc's Ferrari:

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/o...nd-controversy

It seems clear that the only reason to breach this rule would be to exceed the maximum fuel flow regulation, so why was the car not simply DSQ'd? Was the other car also breaching the regulation?
There is smoke, but no fire. As the article states, Ferrari claims to have been weight checked multiple times this season with this being the only infraction. So if they were gaming the flow sensor and running a higher flow rate, they should have been caught out by the earlier checks. Plus the potential to mistakenly provide the wrong number when declaring the fuel load.

Now that I have finished arguing the Ferrari position (and I think they can make a strong argument against your DSQ idea), there clearly is a lot of smoke. Maybe they used this more in qualifying than in the race (as the article speculates). Who knows the details of the previous weight checks? Maybe the FIA allows some secret threshold of overage (similar to the jump start system) before they deem the weight suspect. So who knows maybe they have been suspiciously high a number of times and just now the FIA acted. The clarification that the other teams asked for, impoundment and inspection of the Ferrari fuel system and movement to include a second sensor into the system in the future means there is strong suspicion that Ferrari are gaming the flow. It very well could be that if they are doing so, it might be clever enough that definitive physical evidence may be difficult or nearly impossible to obtain using the current monitoring system (hence additional sensor in the future). So Ferrari may have been exposed/penalized as deeply as the FIA feels they can defend based upon the existing evidence.

Additionally, after all of this speculation, investigation and rule clarification, I believe Ferrari has lost a bit of their edge that they commanded earlier in the season. Perhaps after the rule clarification they have stopped any creative methods? I doubt we will ever know for sure.

Richard
Richard C is offline  
__________________
To paraphrase Mark Twain... "I'm sorry I wrote such a long post; I didn't have time to write a short one."
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[Official] Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Predictions Contest 2019 - Round 21 of 21 - Entries Born Racer Predictions Contest & Fun 6 30 Nov 2019 12:48
[Official] Abu Dhabi Grand Prix: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 21 of 21 Born Racer Formula One 83 30 Nov 2018 15:54
[Official] Abu Dhabi Grand Prix 2017: Grand Prix Weekend Thread Born Racer Formula One 45 30 Nov 2017 13:23
[Official] Abu Dhabi Grand Prix 2016: Grand Prix Weekend Thread Born Racer Formula One 290 8 Dec 2016 14:03
[Official] Abu Dhabi Grand Prix 2015: Weekend Thread Born Racer Formula One 78 21 Dec 2015 20:20


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:39.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.