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Old 2 Nov 2005, 14:17 (Ref:1450442)   #1
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F1 WDC since 1980 - Who won it, who should've?

I mentioned breifly on the Prost v Senna thread and another one some time ago that perhaps a decent topic of discussion would be the Drivers title over the last 20 odd years.

I've had a quick look to see if this has been done beofre, but i couldn't find one?

Anyway listed below is the WDC's since 1980, and IMO (sure to be contentious, or obvious? the drivers who should've won it that years and then those who would have if they had been in the right car, situation

The first column (THE CHAMP) is fact, the second column (THE GUY WHO SHOULD'VE WON IT) is contentious, and the third column is pure fantasy and conjecture on my part I.E, if they had right car, hadn't had an accident, hadn't missed races, not ceded to team orders at certain races etc...

Where i've left a column blank, is where i feel there is no obvious candidate or solution.

Year Champ Who should've Who would've
1980 Jones Piquet Gilles ?
1981 Piquet Reutemann Gilles ?
82 Rosberg Pironi Gilles ?
83 Piquet Prost Would Gilles have taken it again?
84 Lauda Prost Alboreto (car let him down)
85 Prost Prost
86 Prost Mansell
87 Piquet Piquet
88 Senna Prost
89 Prost Senna
90 Senna Prost Mansell (led loads didn't he?)
91 Senna Senna
92 Mansell Mansell
93 Prost Prost
94 Schuey Hill Senna?
95 Schuey Hill If still alive Senna
96 Hill JV ditto above
97 JV JV ditto above
98 Hakkinen DC DC
99 Hakkinen Schuey Schuey?
2000 Schuey Hakkinen Hakkinen/DC
01 Schuey Schuey
02 Schuey Schuey
03 Schuey JPM JPM/Kimi
04 Schuey Schuey
05 Alonso Kimi Kimi


This may not make complete sense but i figured that it was the simplest method of following form displayed in a given season and answering questions we always raise about who won titles without the quickest car or who won titles because their rivals broke down too many times or made mistakes that cost them.

Some of you may want to delve further back than i have but this pretty much covers the period since i first got into motorsport and don't feel my knowledge is sufficient enough prior to that.

So come on folks discuss!!
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Old 2 Nov 2005, 14:25 (Ref:1450446)   #2
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There's not a single world title there been won by anyone who didn't deserve it.

It's scoring the points under the rules of the season that counts.
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Old 2 Nov 2005, 14:35 (Ref:1450454)   #3
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Agreed i don't doubt any of them deserve their laurels, but using our understanding of the sport, and a bit of license it's fascinating to assess how things might have been different....

I.E, If Reutemann had been bit more consistent in '81 and not had that dreadful last race and sewed up the crown - would he have carried on for a few more years against the newer guys of the mid 80's?

If Mansell hadn't had so much unreliability how many titles would he have won ( '86, '90 and even '91?) to add to the dominant '92 season and how would this have impacted on the number that both Prost and Senna ended up with - furthermore how many would Schuey be on now if Senna had been able to see though that period of '94-97 when the Williams was the best car in the field?

Then there's the hypothetical question about Gilles - surely he'd have taken the '82 and maybe '83 crowns? I reckon that the '83 Ferrari would have been right on par with Renault and Brabham if he (and Pironi) had been driving it, no disrespect to Rene and Patrick but they were never consistently ' on it. And then Alboreto did a cracking job in '84 but the Ferrari dramatically fell off the pace - would a more aggressive driver like Gilles had kept it on par with Prost's Mclaren?

Surely there's some top debate to be had here people!
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Old 2 Nov 2005, 15:25 (Ref:1450499)   #4
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Oh, please I don't mind some good debate, but please refrain the usual bickering around one point - don't expect to change anyone's opinion - that will go through pages and pages, spoiling others users opinions. Ok ?
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Old 2 Nov 2005, 15:33 (Ref:1450505)   #5
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Well i doubt there's much scope for any pointless bickering on this thread which has been devised for analysis and debate.

I'll be very disappointed if this thread which i've put a lot of thought into is ruined by that.

So Bononi, please add your thoughts to the thread....
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Old 2 Nov 2005, 16:28 (Ref:1450561)   #6
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I'll be very disappointed if this thread which i've put a lot of thought into is ruined by that.
Don't worry, We'll be watching this one closely.

Let people come and play
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Old 2 Nov 2005, 16:41 (Ref:1450572)   #7
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It's an interesting thread but unfortunately "Could've Would've Should've" is not relevent . IMO whoever amassed the most points (under the rules of that season) is the deserved winner. I take your point about Mansell but there is the view amongs some of the "experts" in F1 that he was unduly harsh with his cars because of his driving style which may explain why he had more mechanical problems than most!
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Old 2 Nov 2005, 16:56 (Ref:1450591)   #8
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Gilles was not really 1982 title favourite when Zolder happened, but 1983 could have been his year, as Ferrari did win the Constructors' title with a lineup that was thoeretically only moderately good, and 1985 seems quite possible as well - the team may not have faded away with Gilles helping out on the development side, but it's purely theoretical. If Scheckter had been faster in 1980, he may not have retired, so Pironi may not have joined the team, so Gilles would not have pushed so hard at Zolder.......

As for Mansell, he seemed to have inferior reliability irrespective of anything else. less than Piquet, Patrese, de Angelis and Prost. Less in turbos, less in NAs, less with ground effects, less with semi-automatic gearboxes, and so on. If he had learnt to work around that, he may not have been as fast as he intermittantly was. It may be that if he had won a title by the end of 1990, he would have stuck to his word and retired. Who might have landed in that dominant 1992 Williams then? Or would Patrese have become perhaps the most mediocre World Champion ever?

Senna probably would have won a further world championship without Imola. He was a long way behind in 1994, but the car was getting better and Benetton surely feared him more than Hill. 1995 should have been easy, but I think that may have been the point at which Ayrton retired. On the other hand, perhaps none of the JV debates would have happened (in the f1 forum at least) if he had continued and JV had never got into F1?
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Old 2 Nov 2005, 19:15 (Ref:1450734)   #9
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BootsOnTheSide - I believe before they signed Mansell for '91, Williams came very close to signing Jean Alesi. If Alesi had taken that and Mansell had retired afterall... who knows!

Plus I remember reading somewhere on a website about Ayrton Senna that in his diaries (or something like that) he'd planned to retire from F1 at the end of 1999. I don't know if that's true or not, however.
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Old 2 Nov 2005, 19:36 (Ref:1450747)   #10
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Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide
Gilles was not really 1982 title favourite when Zolder happened, but 1983 could have been his year, as Ferrari did win the Constructors' title with a lineup that was thoeretically only moderately good, and 1985 seems quite possible as well - the team may not have faded away with Gilles helping out on the development side, but it's purely theoretical. If Scheckter had been faster in 1980, he may not have retired, so Pironi may not have joined the team, so Gilles would not have pushed so hard at Zolder.......
I don't agree. Pironi only lost the championship because of his accident in German GP, so with a car as good as Ferrai 126 C2 (By Harvey Postlethwaite), which also won the constructor's championship that year, Gilles was really likely to have won the DC.

The fact is that Gilles didn't belong at that Formula 1 era. He should have been born 20 or 25 years ago, when the driver was the absolute master of the race instead of the car. Nevertheless, I think he should have won the 1979 championship when he "let" Jody Schecter win it because Jody was named first driver (same thing Gilles expexted from D. Pironi in Imola in 82 but never received it...), and the 1982 championship if...

But as Murray said once, 'if' is a reversed 'F1', so Gilles is just a crownless champion in my heart. Looking forward to watching the movie for him...
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Old 2 Nov 2005, 19:39 (Ref:1450753)   #11
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Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide
Gilles was not really 1982 title favourite when Zolder happened, but 1983 could have been his year, as Ferrari did win the Constructors' title with a lineup that was thoeretically only moderately good, and 1985 seems quite possible as well - the team may not have faded away with Gilles helping out on the development side, but it's purely theoretical. If Scheckter had been faster in 1980, he may not have retired, so Pironi may not have joined the team, so Gilles would not have pushed so hard at Zolder.......

Senna probably would have won a further world championship without Imola. He was a long way behind in 1994, but the car was getting better and Benetton surely feared him more than Hill. 1995 should have been easy, but I think that may have been the point at which Ayrton retired. On the other hand, perhaps none of the JV debates would have happened (in the f1 forum at least) if he had continued and JV had never got into F1?

I know Gilles was ****ed off after Imola, but given how may risks he took he might have come undone at Zolder either way.

And I don't think 1995 would have been an easy championship for Senna. I'm sure that Benetton and Schumacher would have approached things differently had they been competiting against Senna instead of Hill. Besides, the one thing a driver can't beat is age. Sooner or later, it will catch up with him.
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Old 2 Nov 2005, 20:16 (Ref:1450790)   #12
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senna would have been 35 - schumacher is almost 37!
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Old 2 Nov 2005, 21:05 (Ref:1450833)   #13
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I don't think Senna would have been past his best at that point - remember that Damon was about the same age. Drivers lose motivation and willingness to put in 100% before they lose the speed, and I really think Ayrton would still have had it.

I think Alesi had already decided to go to Ferrari instead of Williams before Mansell decided to return to the team, so that's not the deciding factor.
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Old 2 Nov 2005, 22:54 (Ref:1450923)   #14
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Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide
Gilles was not really 1982 title favourite when Zolder happened, but 1983 could have been his year, as Ferrari did win the Constructors' title with a lineup that was thoeretically only moderately good, and 1985 seems quite possible as well - the team may not have faded away with Gilles helping out on the development side, but it's purely theoretical. If Scheckter had been faster in 1980, he may not have retired, so Pironi may not have joined the team, so Gilles would not have pushed so hard at Zolder.......

As for Mansell, he seemed to have inferior reliability irrespective of anything else. less than Piquet, Patrese, de Angelis and Prost. Less in turbos, less in NAs, less with ground effects, less with semi-automatic gearboxes, and so on. If he had learnt to work around that, he may not have been as fast as he intermittantly was. It may be that if he had won a title by the end of 1990, he would have stuck to his word and retired. Who might have landed in that dominant 1992 Williams then? Or would Patrese have become perhaps the most mediocre World Champion ever?

Senna probably would have won a further world championship without Imola. He was a long way behind in 1994, but the car was getting better and Benetton surely feared him more than Hill. 1995 should have been easy, but I think that may have been the point at which Ayrton retired. On the other hand, perhaps none of the JV debates would have happened (in the f1 forum at least) if he had continued and JV had never got into F1?
I think JV would have found his way into Formula One at some stage. As I recall, the Big E was very keen on having a North American get into Formula One and succeed (Andretti was a complete failure in the McLaren) and with a surname like "Villeneuve", it was very attractive from a marketing standpoint. Leaving aside debates as to whether he merits a seat in 2006, up until 1998 (and possibly 1999, but the BAR's complete lack of reliability that year made it too difficult for JV to demonstrate his talents), JV was a very talented driver and would have merited a seat on his own. There was an interview with JV I heard earlier this year (in May, I believe) which was recorded in February 2005, where JV briefly mentioned that in 1995, Ferrari were very interested in hiring JV, but JV had his sights set on Williams, so didn't really entertain the offer from Ferrari.

I don't know whether I recall my Formula One history all too well, but I thought that Alan Jones was in contention to win the WDC in 1981 until his teammate disobeyed "team orders" and won the race, instead of moving over for Jones.

The interesting thing about 1979 was that while Sheckter won the WDC, wasn't it Jones who won the most races and Gilles led the most laps? This was a trivia question I posed earlier this year, but I don't actually recall whether this is the correct answer!
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Old 3 Nov 2005, 07:31 (Ref:1451083)   #15
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My view is the driver who scores the most points deserves the championship. Simple..

But, on topic, with the 'ifs' and 'buts', Pironi would have certainly walked away with the 1982 WDC. Look at the facts for a moment.. He missed the last 5 races, at the time of his accident he had 39 points, which, of course, he stayed at until the seasons end. WDC, Keke Rosberg, scored 41pts. Thus, Pironi would have only had to claim 5pts to win the title.

I also agree that Gilles would have definitely won at least one. Talents like that don't come around very often, and he will always be one of the most gifted drivers of all time. Shame that it was driver error that killed him, but I highly doubt whether that tarnished his reputation at all. I have always wondered when he would go till, and he was 32 when he died, so it would have been conceivable that he would have driven until, say 1986 or later... Which means he would have been around with Senna... And wouldn't have that been great!!

Onto Senna, a 3 times WDC, I don't doubt for a moment had he not had that crash he would have won at least one more WDC, possibly 2 or 3. The Williams was arguably the best car in 1994-1997, and if Hill could nearly snatch it in 94, and win it in 96, then I'm sure Senna would have been there or thereabouts, as he is a driver of a much, much higher calibre than Hill. I wouldn't have been inconceivable to see him retire in 1999, 2000, during the twilight of Alesi's career. Or even perhaps 1997 with his good friend Berger.

But as I said, all the former WDC's are more than deserving, and this is taking nothing away from them, purely hindsight..
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Old 3 Nov 2005, 14:20 (Ref:1451324)   #16
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Originally Posted by Skam85
My view is the driver who scores the most points deserves the championship. Simple..

But, on topic, with the 'ifs' and 'buts', Pironi would have certainly walked away with the 1982 WDC. Look at the facts for a moment.. He missed the last 5 races, at the time of his accident he had 39 points, which, of course, he stayed at until the seasons end. WDC, Keke Rosberg, scored 41pts. Thus, Pironi would have only had to claim 5pts to win the title.
Keke Rosberg had 44 points...
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Old 3 Nov 2005, 17:02 (Ref:1451404)   #17
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Cheers Bononi for your welcome reply to my concerns about thread terrorism!!

Thanks to all so far for making this the thread i'd hoped it would be!

It's good fun ruminating over what might have been and assessing evidence that leads us to our conclusions isn't it!

I'd like to try and reply summararily to you all so far as best i can so that we can continue to look back at the why's and wherfores etc..

Skam good point about how great it would have been to see a Gilles V Senna match up. I think we may have see the likely intense rivalry continue off track as well!

Reason being that Ayrton was very keen to shake reputations up in his first few years and he certainly managed to get other drivers attention and not normally for the right reasons! My impression of Gilles was that he fought hard but fair and that he used his judgement of other drivers skills in his battles with them.

I suspect that with Senna's style of intimidatory antics he may well have found that Gilles would have been none too pleased if he's been barged off the track and probably would have gone straight to the Brazilian to remonstrate.

On the other hand, with Gilles the way he was he may have done exactly the opposite and just put ot down to racing accidents! But then come right back at himat the next race!! Would've been mega.

As for titles those who've said that he may have struggled to get back on terms in '82 are probably right as it wa such a competitive season that it was difficult to gain points advantages (same as '81) and by the same token it would be difficult to regain lost ground. Certainly Pironi was driving beautifully and it's true that Rosberg and co only managed to topple him right at the end in spite of Didier missing half the season!!

I hadn't thought about the Ferrari's constructors title in '83! As BOOTS inferred, that car was capable of taking the right driver to the title.

Very same reason as i think it would've been hard for Ayrton to claw back Schuey's early advantage in '94 - after all Hill had more points than Senna after those first 3 races and the Williams wasn't really on par with the Benetton in Hill's hands until mid season at leas.

But again Senna may well have employed some of his old tactics on Schu and started to bully him into submission in order to regain lost ground?

I think it's also quite amusing looking at the 3 years in a row that Prost and Senna fought for the title 88-90. By my reckoning Prost ought to have taken '88, Senna '89 and Prost in '90 (well i still think that on pace Mansell was the quickest of the lot that year and suffered appalling reliability and a tall order in Prost as teammate!) When the outcome was actually the other way round!

Sure i agree that Mansell was a bit hard on the equipment at times too, (potential Kimi affliction also?) but made for some good viewing!

I'd better leave it there otherwise it'll turn into a bloody essay! but i'm looking forward to your thoughtds on this and further analysis of these years..

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Old 5 Nov 2005, 11:52 (Ref:1452707)   #18
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If If, without bad luck Alan Jones would have been champion in 1979 and 1981 as well!!!
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Old 5 Nov 2005, 14:14 (Ref:1452785)   #19
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1980 Gilles
1981 Gilles
82 Gilles
83 Gilles
84 Alboreto (car let him down)
85 Prost
86 Prost
87 Piquet
88 Senna
89 Prost
90 Prost
91 Senna
92 Mansell
93 Prost
94 Senna
95 Schuey
96 Hill
97 Schuey
98 Hakkinen
99 Schuey
2000 Hakkinen *Just for the manoeuvre in spa
01 Schuey
02 Schuey
03 Kimi
04 Schuey
05 Kimi
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Old 5 Nov 2005, 14:38 (Ref:1452800)   #20
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The onyl championship Mansell might have deserved was 1986 - 1992 was a doddle, in 1991 he broke the car much more than Patrese, and in 1987 he made several mistakes and injured himself at Suzuka. Senna was nothing short of awesome in an inferior car in 1993, by rights that should have been his title. And Kimi was too error-prone to deserve it last year - Alonso strategically paced himself through the season, then blew Kimi away once the pressure was off. That will not be the first title Fernando richly deserves.
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Old 5 Nov 2005, 14:44 (Ref:1452803)   #21
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Agreed, Fernando will be a multiple champion, but Kimi can;t become a nearly man like fisichella. By all rights he should have been champ in 2003
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Old 5 Nov 2005, 16:19 (Ref:1452844)   #22
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Mark Hughes did an interesting editorial on this subject in Autosport not too long ago. It was primarily focused on how many crowns Gilles Villeneuve would have lifted had events turned out differently. It drew supposition on whether he would have stayed at Ferrari or gone elsewhere and if he had... he would have been alive longer etc...

Back in the 1980s, somebody [maybe Maurizio Sandro Sala ?] once said that given the right car, every driver on an F1 grid is capable of winning an F1 race. Most too would be capable of winning an F1 championship. He's right, however, only those who did win it managed the achievement. That's because our sport's not just a test of driver, its a test of driver, machine and circumstance. We also know that winning is a self-fulfilling experience and those who win become better etc... etc...

So, if you look beyond the surface, and consider the possibilities of which drivers managed to get which seats etc... [as Mark Hughes did], the debate could go on forever. In the end its all immaterial as what happened, happened and all those who won the crown, did.
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Old 5 Nov 2005, 16:21 (Ref:1452846)   #23
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Yes, you could debate all that till the cows come home, but at the end of the day if Gilles Villeneuve hadn't gone on the racing line to pass Jochen Mass in Zolder, he'd still be alive anyway. same with senna.
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Old 5 Nov 2005, 16:38 (Ref:1452857)   #24
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Yes, you could debate all that till the cows come home, but at the end of the day if Gilles Villeneuve hadn't gone on the racing line to pass Jochen Mass in Zolder, he'd still be alive anyway. same with senna.
You're absolutely right. It was a terribly sad and unfortunate set of circumstances in both cases.
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Old 5 Nov 2005, 16:53 (Ref:1452866)   #25
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You're absolutely right. It was a terribly sad and unfortunate set of circumstances in both cases.
Thank you. I don;t know why these posts keep on popping up. Would X have won Y if Z hadn't happened. Here's the answer to all those questions: "WE'LL NEVER KNOW, SO STOP ASKING".
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