Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Saloon & Sportscar Racing > Australasian Touring Cars.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 6 Feb 2018, 23:27 (Ref:3799141)   #1
db120176
Racer
 
db120176's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Australia
Sydney CBD
Posts: 458
db120176 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the griddb120176 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Sulman Park Safety

The Bathurst 12 Hour bought another big crash at Sulman Park. It seems that every event, especially the 1000, brings an accident there where driver safety is compromised. I haven't visited this section of the circuit; are there changes that can be made to that section either to improve sightlines for drivers approaching? Or could the area on the outside of the turn be made a run-off area like the one created at McPhillamy Park rather than a brick wall?
db120176 is offline  
Quote
Old 6 Feb 2018, 23:53 (Ref:3799146)   #2
Axeman444
Veteran
 
Axeman444's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Australia
Calling a spade a spade...
Posts: 4,117
Axeman444 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridAxeman444 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by db120176 View Post
The Bathurst 12 Hour bought another big crash at Sulman Park. It seems that every event, especially the 1000, brings an accident there where driver safety is compromised. I haven't visited this section of the circuit; are there changes that can be made to that section either to improve sightlines for drivers approaching? Or could the area on the outside of the turn be made a run-off area like the one created at McPhillamy Park rather than a brick wall?
I've read somewhere (maybe Speedcafe?) someone's suggestion to chop down a few trees near the apex just after the grate, which I think combined with moving the wall back driver's left may improve the visibility around the corner in a sightline they are already focused on, potentially removing some of the dependence on the flaggies for safety. Not sure how much would be required in terms of earthworks

Moving the wall back on driver's right I think removes the challenge of one of the best corners requiring the highest level of commitment to get it right, and fast.
Axeman444 is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Feb 2018, 00:17 (Ref:3799149)   #3
E.B
Veteran
 
E.B's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
United Kingdom
About 7kms East of Albert Park Melbourne
Posts: 6,031
E.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameE.B will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axeman444 View Post
I've read somewhere (maybe Speedcafe?) someone's suggestion to chop down a few trees near the apex just after the grate, which I think combined with moving the wall back driver's left may improve the visibility around the corner in a sightline they are already focused on, potentially removing some of the dependence on the flaggies for safety. Not sure how much would be required in terms of earthworks

Moving the wall back on driver's right I think removes the challenge of one of the best corners requiring the highest level of commitment to get it right, and fast.
I would rather see lights involved and strongly penalise drivers that turned a blind eye to the yellows on a blind turn, no doubt on the basis of 'oh its just going to be a car parallel parked against the wall' rather than broadside across the track.
E.B is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Feb 2018, 00:31 (Ref:3799152)   #4
Umai Naa
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,396
Umai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridUmai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
If they want to hold events there of international status, then the safety measures need to be of an international standard.

Much has been said by various people within the sport from all levels, that the systems and policies in place now, are no longer adequate for that part of the track, for the likes of GT and Supercars.

Short term solution would be to implement proper lighting systems that can be operated instantaneously from the relevent flag points, and most importantly, positioned where drivers can actually see them at all times of the day. I cannot 100% confirm, but the current situation relies on a call from Race Control to allow the lights to function. When approach speeds are north of 200km/h, with almost no room to take evasive action, you tell me if this is good enough. It is also alleged that the lights are not very effective due to their design and postion, and are difficult to sight by the drivers.

Long term, could perhaps involve moving some walls back.
Umai Naa is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Feb 2018, 00:52 (Ref:3799156)   #5
peckstar
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2004
Cayman Islands
Posts: 16,040
peckstar has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Track was recently approved by the FIA. However thats should be a reason to stop any improvements

We must be wary of jumping to any conclusions too early.

Would appear to need some improvement in signalling at minimum though
peckstar is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Feb 2018, 00:54 (Ref:3799158)   #6
Axeman444
Veteran
 
Axeman444's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Australia
Calling a spade a spade...
Posts: 4,117
Axeman444 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridAxeman444 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umai Naa View Post
Short term solution would be to implement proper lighting systems that can be operated instantaneously from the relevent flag points, and most importantly, positioned where drivers can actually see them at all times of the day. I cannot 100% confirm, but the current situation relies on a call from Race Control to allow the lights to function. When approach speeds are north of 200km/h, with almost no room to take evasive action, you tell me if this is good enough. It is also alleged that the lights are not very effective due to their design and postion, and are difficult to sight by the drivers.
How well do lights work with the sun, remembering that in the afternoon that area is pointing back roughly towards the sun depending on the time of year, and also there is a big crowd behind them where people may be wearing yellow and the colour would blend in?

Would make sense to have at least at some of the critical flag points over the top a second flaggie with their hand on the light switch in addition to the flaggie with the yellow furled in hand, to be used simultaneously with each other, and independently of race control. I guess that depends though also on number of flaggies putting their hand up to volunteer at the meeting. Could the comms person do the light switch?
Axeman444 is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Feb 2018, 00:58 (Ref:3799160)   #7
Umai Naa
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,396
Umai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridUmai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Large high-output LED panels as used elsewhere in the world, could probably out-shine the sun if that were an issue.

The existing ones are basically the same as traffic lights.
Umai Naa is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Feb 2018, 02:08 (Ref:3799171)   #8
chavez
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Australia
The Basin, Victoria
Posts: 2,829
chavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridchavez should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Regardless of what warning devices are installed, without changing the current culture of "push, push, push" under yellow these types of incidents will continue to occur.

It is clear a driver will only slow when he sees for himself that he has no option other than to slow.

Additional lights, flags and dancing girls will not make any difference.

Unfortunately the Confederation and Supercars have allowed an entire generation of drivers to ignore yellow flags.

Drivers will complain about circuit safety but we all know come the first yellow flag thrown at Adelaide in a few weeks time, the teams will tell the drivers to push and the driver will barely lift at all.
chavez is offline  
__________________
"Your biggest auto race may one day become a Camaro playground", Chris Economaki, Bathurst 1979
Quote
Old 7 Feb 2018, 02:19 (Ref:3799174)   #9
Umai Naa
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,396
Umai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridUmai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
The second crash was a signalling (or lack thereof) problem.

The time it will take before CAMS decides to make some improvements, will give you an idea on how long it'll take before they eventually implement something like a Code 60. Probably never.

In general terms, Supercars have been the main catalyst for changes in track safety, and the procedures around it, for the last little while. CAMS will continue to sit on their hands until they're forced to make a change. The only time they even look like they're being proactive, is when there's money to be made.
Umai Naa is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Feb 2018, 04:42 (Ref:3799188)   #10
275 GTB-4
Veteran
 
275 GTB-4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Australia
South of Sydney NSW, Australie
Posts: 3,499
275 GTB-4 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid275 GTB-4 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umai Naa View Post
In general terms, Supercars have been the main catalyst for changes in track safety, and the procedures around it, for the last little while. CAMS will continue to sit on their hands until they're forced to make a change. The only time they even look like they're being proactive, is when there's money to be made.
I think you need to get out more Umai...several other events/circuits do things in the name of safety which is not necessarily approved by CAMS but works...

Just being the Devils Advocate...what happens next year when there is a major kerfuffle at say the Cutting or the Elbow...what do we do? Tear up the whole track??
275 GTB-4 is offline  
__________________
The good old days sure seem like a long time ago!!
Quote
Old 7 Feb 2018, 04:58 (Ref:3799193)   #11
Umai Naa
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,396
Umai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridUmai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
That's my whole point.

CAMS sets the bar too low at times.
Umai Naa is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Feb 2018, 05:11 (Ref:3799200)   #12
275 GTB-4
Veteran
 
275 GTB-4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Australia
South of Sydney NSW, Australie
Posts: 3,499
275 GTB-4 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid275 GTB-4 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
What of all the drivers who managed to fight their way safely through that section of the track for the majority of the allocated race time and nearly to the scheduled finish time...then (it can be argued) two drivers made errors that meant the race was red flagged...what part of the equation could anything CAMS say or do to have changed this incident?

All this chat about lights etc...that's fine, I have used them both on a Flag Point and from Race Control...guess what? Absolutely NO guaranty of avoiding a racing incident!

Same can be said about clearly waved Flags where you get the impression that you obviously must be invisible because (some) drivers either chose to ignore them, take a punt to gain an advantage or are just incapable of doing two things at once (watch for the correct line and take notice of waved flags)
275 GTB-4 is offline  
__________________
The good old days sure seem like a long time ago!!
Quote
Old 7 Feb 2018, 06:22 (Ref:3799206)   #13
one five five
Veteran
 
one five five's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,261
one five five should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridone five five should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
As far as that part of track goes, why not put the concrete wall back where the tyre wall used to be (is the tyre wall still there behind the concrete even?) When they put the concrete wall up there (and other places) in the 1999 track upgrade it moved the wall closer to the track in that point, affecting the sight line around the corner.

Another option, why not just slow down the cars??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umai Naa View Post
The second crash was a signalling (or lack thereof) problem.
Has this been confirmed?
one five five is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Feb 2018, 06:24 (Ref:3799208)   #14
peckstar
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2004
Cayman Islands
Posts: 16,040
peckstar has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by one five five View Post
As far as that part of track goes, why not put the concrete wall back where the tyre wall used to be (is the tyre wall still there behind the concrete even?) When they put the concrete wall up there (and other places) in the 1999 track upgrade it moved the wall closer to the track in that point, affecting the sight line around the corner.

Another option, why not just slow down the cars??


how are you thinking we should slow them down?

why not make the cars safer?
peckstar is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Feb 2018, 06:32 (Ref:3799209)   #15
one five five
Veteran
 
one five five's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,261
one five five should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridone five five should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by peckstar View Post
how are you thinking we should slow them down?
Less horsepower, less downforce, aim for laptimes of maybe around 2m 10 seconds.

No different to what they do at Le Mans or in NASCAR, they frame the rules for laptimes to be in the 3m 15-20sec range at Le Mans, and NASCAR has been manipulating their rules to keep the cars below 200mph on Super Speedways ever since 1988
one five five is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Feb 2018, 07:12 (Ref:3799218)   #16
Umai Naa
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,396
Umai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridUmai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by one five five View Post
Has this been confirmed?
There was some fairly damning evidence in the coverage that suggested the flag marshall was not at his post at the time the Marc Mazda collided with the wall, and the Audi colliding with both. Said marshall did not display a yellow flag until the Mercedes reached the scene some time later.

Slowing cars down, would go over just as well as altering the track.

It could possibly be justified if cars were hitting V-Max through that section, but nothing reasonably quick actually is.
Umai Naa is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Feb 2018, 09:04 (Ref:3799248)   #17
dirtymacca
Racer
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 147
dirtymacca should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I suggest speed humps or declaring the area a school zone... that would make the govt happy.
dirtymacca is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Feb 2018, 09:13 (Ref:3799249)   #18
275 GTB-4
Veteran
 
275 GTB-4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Australia
South of Sydney NSW, Australie
Posts: 3,499
275 GTB-4 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid275 GTB-4 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umai Naa View Post
There was some fairly damning evidence in the coverage that suggested the flag marshall was not at his post at the time the Marc Mazda collided with the wall, and the Audi colliding with both. Said marshall did not display a yellow flag until the Mercedes reached the scene some time later.

Slowing cars down, would go over just as well as altering the track.

It could possibly be justified if cars were hitting V-Max through that section, but nothing reasonably quick actually is.
Too hard to see on the footage, but there definitely appears to be a manned flag point well before the stalled car.

You can see a yellow being waved but only just due to the long lens...

CAMS have stated they were happy with the standard of Marshalling...incident investigation by the stewards may show otherwise but I doubt it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEpJva7Aew0
275 GTB-4 is offline  
__________________
The good old days sure seem like a long time ago!!
Quote
Old 7 Feb 2018, 13:02 (Ref:3799315)   #19
Mike Bell
Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
Veteran
 
Mike Bell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
England
Attleborough- 5 minutes from Snet!
Posts: 14,830
Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!Mike Bell has a real shot at the championship!
The modern LED light panels mentioned earlier in the thread that I’ve experienced are very bright, can be sited in places where it wouldn’t be safe for a marshal to be flagging, and be closer to the driver’s eye line. In my opinion, they can be great safety aid, but.....

They still have to be triggered by a marshal or RC.

Drivers still have to take notice of / obey the signal.

The latter can be the tricky bit.....
Mike Bell is offline  
__________________
Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere. (Einstein)
Quote
Old 8 Feb 2018, 04:47 (Ref:3799459)   #20
Sandgroper
Veteran
 
Sandgroper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Australia
Perth WA (south of the river)
Posts: 2,516
Sandgroper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Why not take you foot off the throttle to go around the corner, I mean seriously there are crash's at every track and every corner. Sometimes pushing a bit too hard will send you sideways into the fence.

BUT

I do agree with the yellow warning light in the car which "May" have reduced the speed of second incident.
Sandgroper is offline  
__________________
GO Hard or GO Home
Quote
Old 8 Feb 2018, 08:31 (Ref:3799480)   #21
275 GTB-4
Veteran
 
275 GTB-4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Australia
South of Sydney NSW, Australie
Posts: 3,499
275 GTB-4 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid275 GTB-4 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandgroper View Post
I do agree with the yellow warning light in the car which "May" have reduced the speed of second incident.
A light in the car...you do know that the mount rises 600 meters? You probably don't know that radio communications can be a little iffy with all the blind spots etc...what if the bulb blows because the cars electrical system isn't perfect? I

I could go on...
275 GTB-4 is offline  
__________________
The good old days sure seem like a long time ago!!
Quote
Old 8 Feb 2018, 08:39 (Ref:3799483)   #22
Umai Naa
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,396
Umai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridUmai Naa should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Ok, so we chalk it up to just one of those things, and learn nothing from it?
Umai Naa is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Feb 2018, 10:01 (Ref:3799493)   #23
fomoco
Veteran
 
fomoco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Australia
Bris Vages southside
Posts: 2,193
fomoco should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridfomoco should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by peckstar View Post
Track was recently approved by the FIA. However thats should be a reason to stop any improvements

We must be wary of jumping to any conclusions too early.

Would appear to need some improvement in signalling at minimum though
there are parts of the track across the top that need attention,yes FIa says ok, a bit like monaco,historic reasons,

there is room for improvement.
fomoco is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Feb 2018, 10:07 (Ref:3799495)   #24
fomoco
Veteran
 
fomoco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Australia
Bris Vages southside
Posts: 2,193
fomoco should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridfomoco should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umai Naa View Post
The second crash was a signalling (or lack thereof) problem.

The time it will take before CAMS decides to make some improvements, will give you an idea on how long it'll take before they eventually implement something like a Code 60. Probably never.

In general terms, Supercars have been the main catalyst for changes in track safety, and the procedures around it, for the last little while. CAMS will continue to sit on their hands until they're forced to make a change. The only time they even look like they're being proactive, is when there's money to be made.
one thing Cams dont like, is some one other than the CAMS appointed person suggesting an improvement.

Been there , wouldn't listen to trackside marshalls. So we waited for the Americans to arrive, problem fixed in 5 mins.
Cannot tell Supercars or Cams that there is a problem , or line of sight for flag points.
fomoco is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Feb 2018, 10:26 (Ref:3799501)   #25
one five five
Veteran
 
one five five's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,261
one five five should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridone five five should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Umai Naa View Post
There was some fairly damning evidence in the coverage that suggested the flag marshall was not at his post at the time the Marc Mazda collided with the wall, and the Audi colliding with both. Said marshall did not display a yellow flag until the Mercedes reached the scene some time later.
I would hardly call what was shown on TV as damning evidence? One camera view which primarily is focusing on the crashed cars does not show us anywhere near enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Umai Naa View Post
Slowing cars down, would go over just as well as altering the track.
The track doesn't need changing if the cars are slower. Much cheaper to slow the cars than change the track too
one five five is offline  
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
When is a Safety Car not a Safety Car???? trogladyte Australasian Touring Cars. 24 4 Apr 2009 01:31
Bathurst - McPhillamy Park Safety db120176 Australasian Touring Cars. 18 22 Oct 2008 10:22
oulton park safety brit gt gravel_monkey Marshals Forum 18 27 Apr 2008 11:11
Park Life, 25 years of Lurgan Park Rally M.Lowe Rallying & Rallycross 3 5 Dec 2005 18:04
MALLORY PARK, NR HINCKLEY, LEICESTERSHIREMallory Park, VSCC racing at its best. eclectic Historic Racing Today 25 2 Aug 2004 18:32


All times are GMT. The time now is 18:58.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.