Group B pictures

[glyn parham]

Real Group B cars this time.

Droogmans


Marc Duez


Snijers again


This batch were taken at Ypres 1986.

glyn

[rx-guru]

@ Silver Bullet: Yep - Dutch WJM is right. Mark Rennison drove the first ever true Group B car in RX. In 1982 and 1983 the drivers of the various quattro's, Porsche's etc. did use the Group 4 homologation documents for their "Rallycross Specials" (aka Group 5). From 1984 on Group A homologation papers were used for e.g. so-called Audi Coupé's 4x4 (nothing but Audi quattro's). The reason was simply that the as from 1984 in RX permitted Group B cars were strictly bound to their homologation docs while the "RX Specials" had been granted much more technical freedom. In the mid 1980s it was vital to find the gaps in the new rules... ;o)

[M.Lowe]

Glynn, awesome pics there
Any of Brookes doing the event as he was supposed to have entered aswell

[chunder]

Have found a brillant FRench site for rallycross fans, has some great pictures and a very thorough results section for everything to do with the sport


http://www.fanderallycross.com/

[glyn parham]

Hi Mark.

No pics of Brookes as he did not enter any of the Ypres events I went to (1981, 1984, 1986 & 1989).

In 1986 the British interest was Ian Donaldson in his Metro and Andrew Wood in his Manta.

I do have photos of Russell on the 1982 Hunsruck in the Chevette HSR though.

[glyn parham]

Some piccies from the 1985 RAC Rally

Tony Pond


Toivonen


Salonen


Glyn

[M.Lowe]

Thanks for the reply Glynn

Was there any Irish drivers in Ypres in 81 or other brit drivers?
Regards
Mark

That car of Donaldson's was nice and have just been watching 86 West Cork on video when he won that

[glyn parham]

Hi Mark.

There were plenty of Brits at Ypres over the years, Jimmy M was one of the regulars in the eighties and Tony pond was treated with superstar status in mainland Europe where ever he competed.

Most of the brits at Ypres were from the south east of England which should come as no great surprise and would usually be found competing on local events and a trip to Belguim was easier than going to Wales.

Here is a photo of Donaldsons Metro to keep you quiet.


And a photo of James Cullen at Dieppe in 1985 driving an Escort properly


And finally, from the same event, is this the car which inspired Citroen to build the infamous BX4x4 Turbo


Glyn

[Svierge]

Originally Posted by chunder

Have found a brillant FRench site for rallycross fans, has some great pictures and a very thorough results section for everything to do with the sport


http://www.fanderallycross.com/

What a superb site. It even has Alrid Martinsen's one-off IMSA engined 800PS BMW M3 on it, which I remember from the Rallycross GP at Brands in '88. It looked like a regular Group A M3, but went like stink. That was also my first exposure to Group B cars in rallycross and will stay in my mind for years.

They should never have been banned - either from rallying or rallycross.

[chunder]

It is amazing how many people just love that car, I wonder if there is anyone anywhere who might be able to shed dome light on what happaned to it.
I am not sure Arild kept it or if he might have used it for hillclimbing, I know the Norwegians used their cars for that quite a lot.
Tom Einar Aaserud still uses his RS500 for hillclimbs in damn ear the same spec it finished the ERC, and I know the likes of Tore Bratlie,Rasmushaugen,Martinsen and I am sure Thor Holm used their cars sometimes!

[Barrie]

Sure John Welch bought it so he could use the transmision for the second Astra(Kadett) he built. Can recall Olle Arnesson was going to be the new owner that curtailed when he had a near fatal road accident.

[Nordic]

Watched the 'Quattro years' on the Audi channel last night, in case there is anyone not yet watched it, if you can you must.

Loads of Grp B footage (in fact almost all) and not just Audi. The final bit on the pikes peak event, while short is awesome.

[rx-guru]

Sorry, long time ago and bloody Alois Alzheimer already for a couple of years on my heels, but I think it was former RX guy Bengt Ekström, father of current circuit racer and sometimes rally driver Mattias Ekström, who told me once that he was very eager to buy Arild's 650+ bhp BMW. By the way, it was a Group A based "Rallycross Special". Did John Welch, best buddy of Mike Endean, really need the M3's Xtrac system. As far as I remember (with the aid of Endean) he took over the two Paris-Dakar "Group S" Kadett's from the Opel factory team. But I'm not sure yet and have to dive deep into my files to confirm this. However, in the very back of my brain something tells me that the Xtrac M3 was in fact sold just because of need for its drive-train. Perhaps to Tommy Kristoffersson...?
@ Chunder: You know that Thor Holm is dead since 1999...?

[WJM]

John Welch didn't have the Group S Kadetts. But his was the Dakar version as far as I know.

[rx-guru]

To my knowledge both Paris-Dakar cars were also the prototypes for the proposed (and aborted) Group S.

[BertMk2]

I'm not 100% sure on this but I thought the two prototype Group S cars became the Paris-Dakar cars and then one of these became one of Welch's rallycross Astras. The other Welch car was (I think) built specifically for rallycross. One of the Welch cars was subsequently written off in a crash and I believe the other has more recently been stripped and sold.

[WJM]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

I'm not 100% sure on this but I thought the two prototype Group S cars became the Paris-Dakar cars and then one of these became one of Welch's rallycross Astras. The other Welch car was (I think) built specifically for rallycross. One of the Welch cars was subsequently written off in a crash and I believe the other has more recently been stripped and sold.

Well from my memory they had build four cars. The 2 prototypes with the special motor behind the frontaxle and some other changes I can't recall. And another two cars where they put in an Opel Manta group B engine, that were used in the Dakar. John Welch bought these two, and not the actual rally-prototypes. But I'll be damned if I can refind the source of that. Maybe I just dreamt it?

[BertMk2]

The works cars did indeed run the Manta engine, the final incarnation of John Welchs car used a modified block from the Carlton diesel and kicked out 740ish bhp and 500lb/ft of torque

Trying to find pictures of it now.....

[chunder]

Course I know Thor had died, blimey you couldnt miss that one, he was such a huge character!
I think as far as the Astra's are concerned I think maybe Jernberg may have bought some bits off John, I know the second car was bought by Tommy mainly for the tranny out of the Kadett to put in the S2 Quattro.
John wrote the original off with a huge crash at Lydden I think, where he really hurt his back, a problem that caused him trouble right til he packed in i think.

Car used a Manta 400 motor, sleeved down to I think 2.1 and used a Megatron F1 turbo.
Not sure about the second shell as they could have used templates made already from the earlier car and it was largely a spaceframe using the cage as the rigid structure, any Astra shell could have had the cage built in as they would have known where to strengthen it from working on the first car?
I have seen the 4S is still with Vuxhall and sometimes gets dragged out for shows, but not sure if that is a mock up

One thing I have always wanted to do is find possibly all the Group B cars that raced in Britain and even more cool over Europe and try and find where they came from, what was done to them and where they are now, what a great challenge that would be. Imagine walking round Schanches workshop or Alamakis!

[rx-guru]

Without checking my files I think Opel had build only one Xtrac Kadett prototype for Group S originally to test it with a 1860cc Zakspeed engine (like the first one in Martin Schanche's XR3). Therefore the bonnet was safely locked when Opel presented it to the press for the first time. However, when Group S was due to be dropped by FIA they build another one and fitted both with 2.4 l Manta 400 engines for the Paris-Dakar - to face a desaster there due to lots of broken shocks. I remember doing a story (under the pen-name "Freddy Schlaumeier" = "Freddy Wiseguy") on the Zakspeed-Kadett for my Suiss newspaper "MSa", completely based on information of Martin Schanche, which caused some truly unwanted attention about the Ford engine in the factory Opel over here... ;o)

[M.Lowe]

Glynn, you are the man. Cheers

From what I know John Welch got 2 Opel Xtrac's and the first was used for rallycross then the second was stripped and fully built into a purpose built rallycross machine.

Swindon Race engines built the motors for him and one of his cars where sold to a guy who had a BMW and wanted the transmission while the shell was discarded I was told

[winnie]

I remember an Xtrac gearbox being stolen from an Escort while parked overnight in Fleet, Hants (home of Welch). I know some-one who was questioned by police. Don't think they ever found the gearbox or who pinched it.

[M.Lowe]

The gearbox belonged to Kjetil Bolneset who I dont think got it back.

I wonder which thieving fecker has it now

[chunder]

Haha, great one can you imagine the fun they had trying to get it out of the damn car, or was it already stripped

[M.Lowe]

It was a spare box in the van with other stuff they nicked