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Old 23 Jul 2018, 07:52 (Ref:3838209)   #176
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Christian Horner thinks Red Bull would still have won in China and Monaco this year with Honda rather than Renault power.
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Old 23 Jul 2018, 08:26 (Ref:3838218)   #177
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Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles View Post
With exactly 0 victories.
What nonsense.

It is clear to Red Bull that the Honda is no worse than the Renault. Somehow you haven't noticed that Renault of Ricciardo broke down during the German Grand Prix!?
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Old 23 Jul 2018, 09:58 (Ref:3838256)   #178
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It is clear to Red Bull that the Honda is no worse than the Renault. Somehow you haven't noticed that Renault of Ricciardo broke down during the German Grand Prix!?
Somehow you haven't noticed that it wasn't a Renault PU faillure. Also you failed to notice the fact the Toro Rosso cars were struggling with beating the Williams cars in the dry. And that Gasly had to start from the back because of more grid penalties.
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Old 23 Jul 2018, 10:11 (Ref:3838261)   #179
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Honda are still doing better than last season to be fair
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Old 23 Jul 2018, 10:20 (Ref:3838264)   #180
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Honda are still doing better than last season to be fair
I think it helps that with STR they are now partnered with a less stubborn and self absorbed team, one willing to work together.
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Old 24 Jul 2018, 06:12 (Ref:3838425)   #181
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I think it helps that with STR they are now partnered with a less stubborn and self absorbed team, one willing to work together.

Agreed EB
Ancient History to many on here but Honda's first real venture into Formula racing was the co-operation with Jack Brabham on the F2 engine in the mid 60s. They established a very good relationship and in the 2nd and 3rd years of the relationship dominated F2 to the stage that the competition almost gave up on winning.
From what I have been told, and read, there was a very high degree of respect both ways in the relationship and while there was some language difficulty they managed to communicate very well at engineering level with numbers, sketches and hand signals.

Data logging wasn't invented then so no back to base downloads.
Two very competitive groups of engineers working to a common end without too much administrative bumf.

Maybe that's the way forward for Honda and RBR/STR?
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Old 24 Jul 2018, 11:07 (Ref:3838474)   #182
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Well, it’s not working for Toro Rosso yet, after a promising start.
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Old 24 Jul 2018, 13:18 (Ref:3838488)   #183
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Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
Honda are still doing better than last season to be fair
After 11 races last year, STR with the Renault engine, had 39 points and McLaren-Honda had 11.

After 11 races this year, STR-Honda have 20 points and McLaren-Renault 48.
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Old 24 Jul 2018, 15:11 (Ref:3838520)   #184
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Top ten in Bahrain for Toro Rosso, suggests some improvement
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Old 24 Jul 2018, 17:12 (Ref:3838538)   #185
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After 11 races last year, STR with the Renault engine, had 39 points and McLaren-Honda had 11.

After 11 races this year, STR-Honda have 20 points and McLaren-Renault 48.
So Honda has nearly doubled their points over last year! Even with arguably moving to a lesser team.

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Old 24 Jul 2018, 18:06 (Ref:3838549)   #186
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Almost completely based on one freak result in Bahrain though. And some luck with safety cars, like the last race.
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Old 24 Jul 2018, 18:34 (Ref:3838553)   #187
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So Honda has nearly doubled their points over last year! Even with arguably moving to a lesser team.

Richard
hmmm, yeah it's true. Although if my points gathering was that low then I'd want to multiply by 10 rather than 2. That's like emptying a cup of water into the ocean and saying the sea level raised. It's not wrong, but the perspective is important.

The Honda is "better" than last year it seems. But it's whether it's a meaningful amount better, and so far it doesn't appear it is, unfortunately.
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Old 24 Jul 2018, 19:19 (Ref:3838573)   #188
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But last year it was in the world’s best chassis ever. Now it’s in the 2014 Red Bull, oops, sorry, the STR designed in Faenza of course.
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Old 24 Jul 2018, 19:43 (Ref:3838584)   #189
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Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith View Post
After 11 races last year, STR with the Renault engine, had 39 points and McLaren-Honda had 11.

After 11 races this year, STR-Honda have 20 points and McLaren-Renault 48.
Ah statistics can prove everything.

* McLaren has improved *massively*: 436% of the points of last year (11-> 48)
* Honda has improved massively: almost double the points as last year (11 -> 20)
* Renault has improved: the 3rd customer has 20% more points than last year (39 -> 48)

Now who is the loser?
Torro Rosso, at half the points that they had last year?
Surely, that must be because of the drivers, as the Honda has massively improved. (see above)
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Old 25 Jul 2018, 02:00 (Ref:3838632)   #190
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Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles View Post
Almost completely based on one freak result in Bahrain though. And some luck with safety cars, like the last race.
Sometimes you are the bug and sometimes you are the windshield. It’s easy to look at races like Canada (in which Hartley almost made a brilliant pass... but didn’t pull it off) and use that as an argument for lack of results and then ignore the races where fortune shines upon then and they generate results. This applies to everyone including a certain Mercedes driver very recently.

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Old 25 Jul 2018, 02:16 (Ref:3838633)   #191
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Now who is the loser?
Torro Rosso, at half the points that they had last year?
Surely, that must be because of the drivers, as the Honda has massively improved. (see above)
Yes, STR is the loser this year. They went backwards in both power unit and drivers. Regardless Honda has improved over last year. It better than the alternative.

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Old 25 Jul 2018, 06:22 (Ref:3838639)   #192
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I don't know, seems to me like Honda isn't really much worse than Renault at the moment. The competition in the midfield has tightened. Renault with their factory team have made a step forward, Haas have been going really well, Sauber likewise. And then you have McLaren and Force India all fighting hard for positions in the top 10. Gasly has been driving well, but I don't think their driver-lineup is perhaps quite as good as it has been in recent years. But then again STR has always been the place for rookies and quite difficult to judge them without any known yardstick.

I have feeling they will finish 9th in the WCC but that's not all Honda's fault.
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Old 25 Jul 2018, 11:03 (Ref:3838686)   #193
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The Honda is "better" than last year it seems. But it's whether it's a meaningful amount better, and so far it doesn't appear it is, unfortunately.
Red Bull only have the Renault and Honda to choose from.

So if you suppose Red Bull should choose Renault, why?

Honda offers work status, and a power unit which to Red Bull (and to many Honda fans) seems very similar in lack of performance and unreliability to the Renault.
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Old 25 Jul 2018, 14:06 (Ref:3838721)   #194
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(and to many Honda fans)
This does not strike you as strange?
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Old 25 Jul 2018, 14:27 (Ref:3838722)   #195
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
Red Bull only have the Renault and Honda to choose from.

So if you suppose Red Bull should choose Renault, why?
Because McLaren dropped the Honda PU and went up the standings.

Because STR picked up the Honda PU and went down in the standings.

Literally, it's as simple as cars with Renault engines do better than cars with Honda.
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Old 25 Jul 2018, 14:42 (Ref:3838726)   #196
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but surely budgetary differences play a part here as well.

Mclaren had the resources to accommodate a switch to a Renault power plant far more quickly then STR would have been able to do so with Honda.

of course i dont know how much Honda is putting in though. but that aside, is the first half of this season really a fair representation for STR?

Plus Alonso flatters while Hartley has struggled...Gasly vs Vandoorne paints a different picture.

anyways, i am a RB fan so i remain optimistic for next season.
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Old 25 Jul 2018, 18:59 (Ref:3838769)   #197
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McLaren had resources before the Honda engine. Didn't help much. They dropped it and went upwards.

STR you could create a discussion about, but not McLaren. They dropped Honda and immediately improved with no other changes. That's pretty black and white.

As much as I want Honda to do well, I'm yet to really see it personally.
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Old 25 Jul 2018, 19:06 (Ref:3838770)   #198
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Yes, but McLaren are still underperforming compared to a) the other Renault-powered teams, and b) the level performance a team of McLaren’s pedigree and resources should be at.
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Old 25 Jul 2018, 19:29 (Ref:3838774)   #199
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Yes, and that's all about McLaren. But they removed Honda from the equation and went forward. Whether McLaren are doing well or not, the engine is an upgrade.

McLaren got rid of Honda. Went forward.
STR got some Honda. Went backwards.

No matter how you measure it, Honda are still the worst of the 4, and any improvement is a drop in the ocean, regardless of McLarens (lack of) performance.
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Old 26 Jul 2018, 00:44 (Ref:3838803)   #200
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This does not strike you as strange?
What's strange? Honda are great and have Socihiro Honda's racing spirit to race anywhere and everywhere. It would have been great if they had stayed with Lola chassis in F1 from 1960's to the present day with continuous entries, but oh well for whatever reasons they have chopped and changed between various programs.

So the F1 program is uncompetitive -- that's fine, Honda are out there racing with varying degrees of success in BTCC, WTCR, Indycar, IMSA, MotoGP... Anywhere and everywhere there is a vehicle with an engine in it you will find Honda, even the putt-putt cars at your local hire go-kart track!
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